Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

[MsDoodahs]

I do know that the head of the North Dakota RP delegation was also either a chair of or at least on one of the committees, I think the rules committee.

He was in a strong position to engineer a vote for McCain.

More likely, however, it was Drew Ivers. Drew Ivers was the Ron Paul national delegation leader, appointed by the Campaign for Liberty and maybe Ron Paul himself.

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

We must start preparing for the division of our movement in two ways -

Dominionism vs. Secularism

Pragmatism vs. Principle

Of course, you could reword the last one, invertebrates vs. vertebrates and I'd be fine with that.

Ron Paul rarely, if at all (considering is lonely voting record) compromises himself, at least in Congress and in his rhetoric.

The Real Politics Training School was a balls-to-the-wall class and motivational seminar on how and why NOT to compromise - ever - with our issues. Steadfast ruthlessness in defense of Liberty, forget mere extremism, was the message; how to eliminate the pragmatists was the lesson.

We shouldn't be surprised at the choices of the NV delegates - puppy-dog compromise was always present in their negotiations, or so it seemed in conversation with them and their helping hand. That's definitely not intended to take away from the hard work and fighting they did, but to put their compromise (which was really just surrender) in perspective.

The Massachusetts delegates are on their way to being 'digested' by the party and, while they're still our allies and even patriots today, they are at an increased risk of opposing Liberty in the coming years.

There is most of what I know, plus my two cents.

This is all correct. My comments referred to the conference call which '76 apparently missed. Regarding Ivers, Hopper and Moore, not one of them told the delegates they must vote for someone. I was using the word 'told' in my previous post to describe his response to a question. It was simply encouraged by Ivers that delegates cast their votes for McCain, or 'better yet', find an alternate who would. This would supposedly win us much good will and favor in the future, would win some neocons over to our side or something. (We'll see, I guess.) I can only speculate about what was done between the delegates at the convention, of course more will be coming out soon.

Thinking back, Moore remained totally silent, not agreeing or protesting. Actually, he himself was a guest to the call and may have left by that time. He was simply there to explain his new role with the RNC for the convention and answer anyone's questions, which he did in his typically straightforward manner.

Hopper, on the other hand, agreed with Ivers, at least on doing whatever we can to ensure good will and not cause any 'trouble'. She seemed like her main concern was promoting campaign for liberty and assuring that the delegates were not making fools of themselves, or embarrassing the CFL.

One thing I thought odd, not just on this call but even before, even regarding our state convention, was the idea that we shouldn't 'cause trouble', both coming from our leadership and from the GOP.

However, it wasn't until this conference call that I ever found this offensive. Even Ron Paul himself was on the call urging people to not make waves and 'cause trouble'. Ron Paul was particularly concerned about the way we'd be treated by police, security and the GOP. Ivers correctly said this wasn't our venue, and that we should fight our battles elsewhere.

What offended me was the underlying assumption that seemed to be coming from everyone that the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals. Considering the painstaking care which our delegates in every county and state convention learned the rules and stuck to them, it was somewhat of an insult to suggest we could only fight back by causing trouble, or as Spirit of '76 put it, 'being disruptive' or 'trashing McCain'.

Also, it's my belief that the Oklahoma delegate mentioned in another post whose vote wasn't counted in the official tally, who along with his wife (an alternate) ripped of their RNC badges, I'm pretty sure he's the one who asked the original question on the conference call regarding what to do if Ron Paul isn't on the ballot. He told Ivers even if he did want to ask an alternate to vote for him, his alternate was his wife and she certainly wouldn't.

Side by side to make it easy to look for shifts in tone.

 

[pepperpete1]

Not just MA

Question: is this problem limited to the Massachusetts delegation?

Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

Where is St. Patrick when you need him?

 

[MsDoodahs]

free.alive, thanks for mentioning that Ron was on the call in your second post.

I was not on the call, and maybe I'm wrong but I'm going to put it out there for consideration.

You said that Ron seemed concerned about how the delegates might be treated, and that you took from that that he thought "the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals."

I respectfully ask that you consider that Dr. Paul and the others were not concerned about how you guys would act but were very concerned about how the police, security and the GOP would RE act.

I don't think Ron doubted his delegates. I think he was concerned as to how his delegates would be treated by police, security, and the GOP when faced with a challenge - and at this point, even the mere presence of his delegates was a challenge.

MsD

 

[MsDoodahs]

Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

Where is St. Patrick when you need him?

After seeing the shit pulled here in Texas, it's obvious that the machine doesn't even bother to follow its own rules.

I can see Ron not wanting any of our people to be attacked (which I feared might happen just because they were there and breathing - they were sure 'nuf in the den).

Had any RP supporter been attacked by the goon squads, the media would have been deployed to spin it the GOPs way - made up bullshit about the person, interviews with party hacks telling lies on camera: "oh, that Ron Paul supporter did ________ and the police did the right thing by tazering/beating/arresting/whatevering him." And you guys know that all the sheep would eat that shit right up. Every GOPer in the whole damn country would have been ready to slam the door in our faces when CFL launches and we start the effort to do this peacefully neighborhood by neighborhood.

It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices. I also want to commend them for working hard to get to the convention and representing Dr. Paul there, because as I said, just being there was a challenge to the GOP machine.

I will believe that each one made whatever choices they felt were best. It was no easy task and I won't attack them because I was not in their shoes and can't say that faced with the same options, I might not have done the same thing. (Except the concert thing. That one...uh....no.) As for the rest...y'all tried. I don't trust the machine at all - they will not keep promises, so any carrot they dangled was just that - a carrot.

I'm just glad it went off without the potential hitch (above). We made it through that. Whew. I'm glad it's over.

 

[muzzled dogg]

all i have to say is yall some straight bitches for this

dont let me catch yall in my hood afterhours pc

 

[Spirit of '76]

It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices.

WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.

 

[MsDoodahs]

WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.

Is there a legal response that can be launched?

 

[Spirit of '76]

I have a feeling they'll count them when/if they release an official tally. They just didn't want anything screwing up good TV.

 

[MsDoodahs]

Oh, okay - just part of the big show for the sheep.

 

[freelance]

First, I'm sure that I'm not the only one breathing easier that nothing happened to our delegates--no arrests, no beatings, no taserings or worse. I felt like I held my breath for them during the whole convention.

Second, I can't say with any certainty that I would not have cracked under pressure, especially if I had felt that my own safety or the safety of my family might have been in jeopardy. I can say with certainty that I would not have believed that I would have anything to gain from the party short of my own personal safety in exchange for my vote.

I'm afraid that I do not believe for one second that RPers will ever be accepted for who they are, but rather will only be accepted temporarily when they fall in line, and that acceptance will always be provisional and subject to change the very next time there's one of those "fall in line" scenarios.

And this comes from a former (WAY former) insider--like thirty years ago. Even though I've been absent from the state and local GOP scene for thirty years, I was recently the subject of "dirty tricks" attempting to secure my (active and rabid) support for John McCain. I told them to stuff it and never dial my phone number again until they got back to their Constitutional roots.

Moral to the story. Once the GOP has your number, they never lose it. It's like the Hotel California.

You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!

 

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

These MA delegates were sent to vote for Dr. Paul, not be central planners for the movement. Their task was simple, and they were seduced with power/flattery to compromise the wishes of their delegation. All for "promises" from the GOP.
Hahahaha!!!

Compromising a simple task for the "greater good" of the movement is Marxist elitist bullshit, and I'm shocked these delegates used such reasoning. Why would I vote for someone like this for office when they will take it upon themselves to decide what's "best", even if it means going against what got them elected in the first place?

 

[puppetmaster]

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin


They are part of the problem with these treasonous acts...easily swayed and should be swinging. I am so sorry Ron Paul. I had higher expectations for these folks. The strong shall prevail the weak shall parish.

 

[DeanToPaulIn4Years]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

 

[thx1149]

To all that are attacking our delegates or considering abandoning the movement

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

These people made such a difficult decision. I've been going back and forth since the stories came out, and finally I think that had I been a delegate there, I would have not voted for McCain or allowed an alternate to vote. This would be for integrity. If we view a vote as an endorsement, I don't like the idea of endorsing McCain, even if it is a pointless fake vote for a candidate that already won.

That may be my view today, but even so I feel no ill towards those that voted otherwise. These people did what they thought was right. They are individuals, not the movement. Each individual involved in the movement is someone with common goals, generally regardless of the ways they see of achieving them. You seem to hold their actions against the movement, ignoring that the movement was uninvolved and clearly split on the issue.

These people made the decision they thought was right. With what we know now they cost us nothing. There was no real vote. There was no real tally. There was no free speech. There was no opportunity to oppose. Had they voted against McCain nothing would have changed. In all likeliness, nothing would have even been recorded any different. That being said they made the choice they thought would best benefit the movement. They cost us nothing and possibly gained us access to committees that will allow us more access and power in the party in the future.

Yes, we need our integrity. But if we are going to win this game we need to play along. Sacrificing nothing, except maybe a symbol, to gain something may be a blow to our integrity on some level, but it may also prove very valuable. It's not the choice I would have made, but I am not willing to say it was the wrong choice. Time will tell if the party follows through with their promises. I wish they got them in writing.

The most important thing to be said here once again is that these people are individuals. They are not the movement, they are not the consensus. We all have opinions on whether what they did was right or wrong. If you are ditching the movement on the actions of a few individual members then you probably never understood the movement anyway. Concepts like individualism (as opposed to collectivism) and personal responsibility are essential to the movement. I hope you and others like you can reconsider and be adult about this. At least stick around and engage in some mature conversation, so that we can better understand your views and you can better understand ours. If you choose to go, leave in peace and know that we will still be here fighting for you and we will be pleased to see you when you are ready to return. All that being said, in regards to the events that transpired at the RNC, in the end none of this is important and this will likely have little effect on the movement, as it would have regardless of the actions of the delegates.

For my own curiosity, what's with the "Obama 08" sig? Did you really believe the platforms supported by the movement? You do realize Obama doesn't? Are you choosing him as the "lesser of the two evils?" If so, how do you see your voting for something you don't believe in because you feel it would be better than the alternate for the country as being so different than the atrocity you accuse the delegates of. Should what they did be easier to excuse because they weren't even voting in a real election where their vote could have mattered?

 

[jacmicwag]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

Hey, DeanforPaul - I met you in the airport heading out of Minneapolis. You and your wife were drinking beer and I was nursing a noon martini. I have not read this whole thread and don't really know what the issue is but I will say this - thanks for traveling all the way from NH to attend the convention and support Ron Paul. At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Regards,
Jack

 

[Micah Dardar]

If you can't do the job, don't sign up for it! Plain and simple. Patriotism sometimes may require standing on the shoulders of giants! If you aren't up for it, don't do it.

 

[OrbitalGun]

DeanToPaulIn4Years - It is not you that should leave the organization. The thirty pieces of silver gang that voted for McCain should be the ones shown the door.

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

 

[newyearsrevolution08]

DeanToPaulIn4Years - It is not you that should leave the organization. The thirty pieces of silver gang that voted for McCain should be the ones shown the door.

+ 1 and then some

all it shows the mccain crowd is that when push comes to shove us ron paul patriots will cave just like the rest. It doesn't matter what the reasoning is for each and every delegate or voter because the VOTE is the only thing that matters in the end.

If you go there as a ron paul delegate and leave voting for mccain then what was the point of even going?

 

[Debbie Hopper]

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

Your account of the delegate only conference call you crashed is not at all accurate. A question was posed by a delegate who was bound to vote for McCain. He said his conscience wouldn't allow him to cast a vote for McCain. Drew advised him to have an alternate stand in so that he wouldn't have to.

That's a far cry from your claim that Drew Ivers told Ron Paul Delegates to vote for McCain. As far as my comments, I said I understood and if I were in his shoes I couldn't cast a vote for McCain, either, and since Dr. Paul has steadfastly refused to endorse McCain, he'd probably feel the same way.

 

[Mortikhi]

You are an idtiot and worthless to the movement.

Spoken like someone that probably voted McCain.

I donated money.
I became a precinct captain.
I put up signs.
I stood on the side of the road.

What did you do? Sell us all out?

Die.