Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

[musicmax]

RON PAUL would NEVER support that neocon bastard.

McSame has never been a liberal, therefore he is not a "neocon." Please get your epithets correct.

 

[musicmax]

Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."

What a dickless asshole. As a delegate you are REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE WHO CAST VOTES. And you betray them for a fucking CONCERT?

 

[SnappleLlama]

There's really no good reason why they had to hand their votes to McCain. No one forced them to do anything.

 

[BarryDonegan]

Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."
And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
Quote:
We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

More to come...

Carl Bunce

Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
win away by closing the door to the party.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
can't really see the whole picture.

Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

Quote:
We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.

this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.

 

[thx1149]

this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.

You have to play the game. I think they made a decent move. They had more to gain by going with McCain then against him. This will allow us to keep growing within the party instead of being further locked out.

I don't see this as being similar to the congressmen justifying their big government votes. In those situations their vote actually means something. In this case a vote was nothing more than a symbol, and even if they voted for Paul or abstained, the symbol wasn't going to be heard or effect anything. I think that makes it quite different than your metaphor.

 

[KenInMontiMN]

Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.

 

[Rhys]

Massachusetts had such great potential in the 1700's. It's been all downhill from there.

We get searched and seized by the Secret Service... and they think we gained something by them whimping out.

 

[Chiznaddy]

Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.

Thank you.

Paul said himself he could have spoke at the convention (on Colbert), but would have had to sacrifice everything he believed in by supporting their agenda and John McCain.

 

[Starfield]

Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.

Obviously. They voted for McCain so they were, by definition, McCain supporters.

I can understand how a delegate would throw in the towel and just abstain. Ron Paul himself had given up on the nomination. The place was a solid mass of cheering weirdos. etc. etc.

What I can't understand is how someone would go through the trouble of becoming a delegate and then actually vote for McCain. It makes zero sense. They do know Ron Paul's nickname, don't they? Dr. No? What would Dr. No do?

Yea, I was hoping for triple digits. At the least, I was hoping he would best his "official" pre-convention tally of 21. If you include the no-votes, maybe he did do that.

 

[ruggedindividualist]

I truly can't believe this whole sorry mess. The RNC was mean and pulling dirty tricks so you decided to PLAY BALL with them?? THAT'LL show'em! You voted as they wanted so the vote would be unanimous and McCAIN WOULD LOOK GOOD???? You made a "deal" the vague specifics of you can't say other than the pathetic dolt who traded his precious RP vote for concert tickets??? You bent over for them because they talked NICE to you??? I GUARANTEE they are laughing their a**** off at you spineless, gutless, useful idiots. What a principled bunch you are! Did you hand over all the information they wanted when they asked you so nice and made you feel so special??
Sickening. You are not Ron Paul supporters, you do not want liberty. You think they are going to hand you liberty if you ask real nice and play by their rules??
You were had. Too bad you were representing Dr Pauls supporters.

 

[RP4EVER]

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

 

[Sematary]

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

I'm certain that the gestapo like behavior against RP supporters and delegates had alot to do with what happened here.

 

[RP4EVER]

Then ND and the RNC violated their own rules. Since the 5 were bound to Paul on the first ballot.

Im not suprised but I would like to hear from an ND source about this

 

[SilentBull]

I think you delegates ate a shit sandwich.

Die in a fire, the lot of you.

You are an idtiot and worthless to the movement.

 

[Perium]

I don't understand after how many months of reading about how Dr Paul represents not bending your ideals, so many of our delegates would "bend their ideals" to vote for McCain. I hope after they realize what they have done, they feel ashamed.

 

[free.alive]

North Dakota? Nevada? My perspective.

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

I do know that the head of the North Dakota RP delegation was also either a chair of or at least on one of the committees, I think the rules committee.

He was in a strong position to engineer a vote for McCain.

More likely, however, it was Drew Ivers. Drew Ivers was the Ron Paul national delegation leader, appointed by the Campaign for Liberty and maybe Ron Paul himself.

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

We must start preparing for the division of our movement in two ways -

Dominionism vs. Secularism

Pragmatism vs. Principle

Of course, you could reword the last one, invertebrates vs. vertebrates and I'd be fine with that.

Ron Paul rarely, if at all (considering is lonely voting record) compromises himself, at least in Congress and in his rhetoric.

The Real Politics Training School was a balls-to-the-wall class and motivational seminar on how and why NOT to compromise - ever - with our issues. Steadfast ruthlessness in defense of Liberty, forget mere extremism, was the message; how to eliminate the pragmatists was the lesson.

We shouldn't be surprised at the choices of the NV delegates - puppy-dog compromise was always present in their negotiations, or so it seemed in conversation with them and their helping hand. That's definitely not intended to take away from the hard work and fighting they did, but to put their compromise (which was really just surrender) in perspective.

The Massachusetts delegates are on their way to being 'digested' by the party and, while they're still our allies and even patriots today, they are at an increased risk of opposing Liberty in the coming years.

There is most of what I know, plus my two cents.

 

[TheTyke]

I feel like crying after reading this thread. As someone said, Ron Paul himself said that he'd be throwing away ALL his principles to support McCain.

What hope is left for our country if we give in to intimidations and coersion? This is NOT what our movement was about. Maybe they just didn't know what they were getting into.... and what you said about Lew Moore and Debbie Hopper is even more distressing. Gah...

 

[freelance]

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

This is sickening!

If this is true, then it doesn't matter how many people chase Hannity down the street with snow balls or how many people scream "911 was an inside job." It doesn't matter how we comport ourselves, if, in the end, we are encouraged to just give in.

If this is true, what's the point of the past couple of years?

 

[Truth Warrior]

"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"

 

[devil21]

Debbie Hopper is a member of RPF. I'd like to hear her explanation of that. Im sure others would too.

I think Im coming to the realization that most of RP's campaign staff was loyal to the GOP, not Ron Paul. If they piss off the GOP who will they try to get jobs with in 2012? KEEP THAT IN MIND!! I think it's safe to say that no RP2008 paid staff member should be on the 2012 CFL candidate's staff. There are way too many instances of RP's staff doing the *wrong* things at the *wrong* times to put any faith at all in their dedication to any liberty-minded candidate in 2012.