Mary the Queen of Heaven

[pcosmar]

I am not RC nor am I a RC apologist. But I can tell you that the author doesn't know what he's talking about or is a terrible liar. The RC's venerate Mary, they do not worship her.

And I was raised in the RCC and perhaps the "official" line is that they don't.. but in practice they absolutely do.

And this is an error. but try to point out the error and they will fight and defend their error.

They pray TO Mary.. they kneel down and worship before her image.
They place offerings before the images. They burn incense to the Queen of Heaven.

But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune. "But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine." "And," said the women, "when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her sacrificial cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?"

They are as hard headed and hard hearted as the people of Judah when they were told not to.

 

[RJB]

And I was raised in the RCC and perhaps the "official" line is that they don't.. but in practice they absolutely do.

And this is an error. but try to point out the error and they will fight and defend their error.

No, they won't defend an error. They will tell you that you are wrong because they don't worship Mary. If you improperly worshipped Mary when you were a Roman Catholic, that's YOUR issue, not a Roman Catholic's issue who properly loves the Mother of our Lord.

BTW, why do people keep mentioning Roman Catholic's supposed worship of Mary when no Roman Catholic is participating in the thread? So far only Orthodox Christians have been mentioning the reason behind our love of her. No worship has been mentioned-- aside from those wishing to derail.

 

[pcosmar]

No, they won't defend an error. They will tell you that you are wrong because they don't worship Mary. If you improperly worshipped Mary when you were a Roman Catholic, that's YOUR issue, not a Roman Catholic's issue who properly loves the Mother of our Lord.

BTW, why do people keep mentioning Roman Catholic's supposed worship of Mary when no Roman Catholic is participating in the thread? So far only Orthodox Christians have been mentioning the reason behind our love of her. No worship has been mentioned-- aside from those wishing to derail.

Worship of the Queen of Heaven has been around longer than Christianity.

God said Don't Do It. (post #179)

This whole thread is justification for doing it.. And obfuscation,, saying that prayers,,and incense burning and offerings before images aren't really worship.

And yet world wide it is still practiced.

 

[Christian Liberty]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/proof.htm

I'm as anti-Catholic as anyone, but a Jesus-is-savior link? Come on....

 

[TER]

Worship of the Queen of Heaven has been around longer than Christianity.

God said Don't Do It. (post #179)

This whole thread is justification for doing it.. And obfuscation,, saying that prayers,,and incense burning and offerings before images aren't really worship.

And yet world wide it is still practiced.

No this thread is not about worshiping the Mother of God. It is about respecting her and venerating her as our very own mother in Christ. I am sorry you can't tell the difference.

 

[RJB]

This whole thread is justification for doing it.

Baloney. In your desire to distance yourself from Christ's Church you get further from the reality of the New Covenant.

When the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, he didn't just appear. He was born of a virgin woman. He became our flesh. He became our brother. God became our Father. And yes, Mary became our adopted mother. The New Covenant brought us into the family of God, we are his children.

The Ark of the New Covenant became flesh as well. She is not worshipped but is as revered as the Old Ark of the covenant-- Probably more revered because she is our mother-- not your pagan goddess.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus

This chapter tells the story of Israel, the Church and yes, the Holy Family.

 

[lilymc]

Baloney. In your desire to distance yourself from Christ's Church you get further from the reality of the New Covenant.

When the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, he didn't just appear. He was born of a virgin woman. He became our flesh. He became our brother. God became our Father. And yes, Mary became our adopted mother. The New Covenant brought us into the family of God, we are his children.

The Ark of the New Covenant became flesh as well. She is not worshipped but is as revered as the Old Ark of the covenant-- Probably more revered because she is our mother-- not your pagan goddess.

This chapter tells the story of Israel, the Church and yes the Holy Family.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I can't be silent on something so important. This is just a bizarre view of Christianity.

Mary is not our mother, Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. HE even made a point (repeatedly) that the important thing was not who our earthly parents or siblings are, but who does the will of God... He said:

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mark 3:31-35​

It is good to honor and respect Mary, but that is not what the RCC (or EO, apparently) does. Calling someone the "Queen of Heaven", praying to Mary, bowing down before her statue, all of those things are treating her like a deity.

Stating "We're not worshipping her, we're venerating her" is akin to saying "I'm not laughing, I'm giggling." It's just semantics.

pcosmar is absolutely right. This entire thread is a justification for exalting Mary, and defending unbiblical ideas.

 

[RJB]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I can't be silent on something so important. This is just a bizarre view of Christianity.

You find it bizarre that we consider ourselves in the family of God through Jesus and his mother? Jesus didn't just drop from the heavens. He was born of a woman who was his mother. Jesus is our brother, so his mother is our mother.

Calling someone the "Queen of Heaven", praying to Mary, bowing down before her statue, all of those things are treating her like a deity.

No one has called her a deity. Earlier you said you accused no one in this thread of worshipping Mary. I hope you are sticking to that.

I do think some get carried away with their devotion to the woman, but the photos you post don't prove they are worshipping her. They are probably in prayer WITH her to her son, our brother.

Calling someone the "Queen of Heaven",

Back to this... A woman is crowned in heaven. You and Pete say this is Israel. Does this mean that YOU worship Israel? By the logic you apply to us, it does.

Stating "We're not worshipping her, we're venerating her" is akin to saying "I'm not laughing, I'm giggling." It's just semantics.

No it's not. She is NOT God. We don't worship her. We revere her as the Hebrews revered the Ark of the Old Covenant.

pcosmar is absolutely right. This entire thread is a justification for exalting Mary, and defending unbiblical ideas.

So you misspoke when you said your weren't accusing anyone on this thread of Mary worship?

 

[Ronin Truth]

Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Hail Holy Queen

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Leader: Pray for us O Holy Mother of God,
All: That we may be worthy of the promises of Christ.
(Optional)
Leader: Let us pray.
All: O God whose only begotten Son by his life, death, and Resurrection has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life; grant we beseech thee, that meditating on these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Leader: O Mother of the Redeemer...
All: ...Living Tabernacle of the Eucharist, and Luminous Rose of Heaven, with humble confidence we ask you to bestow upon the Holy Father all the graces and blessings reserved for him by the Holy Trinity from all eternity. Amen.

http://www.catholicity.com/prayer/rosary.html

Does the name Semiramis ring any bells, perchance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9IkQtulHOg

 

[TER]

Lily, we will have to agree to disagree. The Theotokos is the mother of all who are saved in Christ, since it is her flesh which Christ took. As it is through His flesh by which ours is restored and made divine, she therefore is our mother.

Your quote above does not diminish that at all. Jesus was saying the truth, that all who do His holy will are His brothers, sisters, and mothers. But this does not take away from the honor and special place His mother has in the story of our salvation. In fact, no human so greatly did the will of God than the Virgin, which is why she was made worthy by God to be born from her.

I am sorry that you cannot see the difference between veneration/adoration and worship. I can easily say that you are jealous of the Theotokos and accuse you of that. Would you like that? If not, then please don't accuse me of worshiping the Virgin Mary because it is untrue and because it makes you look like someone who is either jealous or arrogantly thinks they know the heart of a person better then that person.

 

[lilymc]

You find it bizarre that we consider ourselves in the family of God through Jesus and his mother? Jesus didn't just drop from the heavens. He was born of a woman who was his mother. Jesus is our brother, so his mother is our mother.

No one has called her a deity. Earlier you said you accused no one in this thread of worshipping Mary. I hope you are sticking to that.

I do think some get carried away with their devotion to the woman, but the photos you post don't prove they are worshipping her. They are probably in prayer WITH her to her son, our brother.
Back to this... A woman is crowned in heaven. You and Pete say this is Israel. Does this mean that YOU worship Israel? By the logic you apply to us, it does.

No it's not. She is NOT God. We don't worship her. We revere her as the Hebrews revered the Ark of the Old Covenant.

So you misspoke when you said your weren't accusing anyone on this thread of Mary worship?

No, most people don't call her a deity. But actions speak louder than words, and the reality is that many Catholics worldwide (some more than other, of course) ACT as if Mary is a deity.

As for you guys, I didn't think you were Mary worshippers, that is why I stated that earlier on the thread. But I do think that you guys are defending actions that, when put all together, basically amount to worship. You don't see it that way, and you seem to be sincere, but that doesn't change the reality. You guys are defending ideas about Mary that are unbiblical, and downplaying actions that are idolatrous.

Did you watch that documentary I posted earlier? I'll post it again. Please take the time to watch it. This is a serious thing, because millions of people around the world are being deceived.

If you watch this, you will see what I'm talking about...

 

[RJB]

You guys are defending ideas about Mary that are unbiblical, and downplaying actions that are idolatrous.

It's unbiblical that the Mother of Jesus, who is our brother, is our mother as well and that she carried in her womb the New Covenant so we see her as the Ark of the New Covenant when the Word became flesh?

Did you watch that documentary I posted earlier? I'll post it again. Please take the time to watch it. This is a serious thing, because millions of people around the world are being deceived.

I said I think that a minority do get carried away, but that doesn't apply to this thread. To answer your obsession, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more militant people in the mariology movement broke off and formed their own church. They strike me as off the wall as a lot of the protestant sects predicting certain dates that the world will end.

 

[TER]

Lily, here is an illustration of Moses and Joshua bowing down in front of the Ark. Are they committing idolatry?

 

[RJB]

Israel, not Mary is the "woman" referred to in Revelation Ch. 12.

Pretty much every commentary I've read says that it is Israel. The 12 stars in the crown refer to the twelve tribes of Israel.

I would be very cautious believing that the state of Israel was crowned in that verse. You guys probably worship the state of Israel without realizing it...

And the use of commentary when reading the Book of Revelation? What happened to Sola Scriptura? Commentary is nothing but the errors of men, right?

 

[RJB]

Israel, not Mary is the "woman" referred to in Revelation Ch. 12.

One more warning for Kevin about worshipping the State of Israel from a website that he likes.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Zionism/israel_idolatry.htm

The Sin Of Worshipping The Land Of Israel Instead Of The God Of Israel

By David J. Stewart
Exodus 20:3, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”


The following image is a snapshot from a Jewish website, promoting the cause of the Christians United For Israel (CUFI) activist group. This is an unbiblical website. They advertise, “Make A Difference For Israel Every Day.” It makes me want to go vomit and I know God feels the same way. I am compelled to start an organization called, “Christians United Against Israel,” because Israel today is a shameful nation that has abandoned the God of the Bible. Christian tourists are being spit upon by Jews in Israel today. I dare you to find the Gospel anywhere on the CUFI website.

 

[lilymc]

It's unbiblical that the Mother of Jesus, who is our brother, is our mother as well and that she carried in her womb the New Covenant so we see her as the Ark of the New Covenant when the Word became flesh?

Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. The RCC/EO took that a step further and said she is the "Mother of God." That is a deceptive phrase, because it can easily mislead some people into thinking that Mary is somehow above God. God is eternal, there is no one above God, and no one before God.

Although Jesus began to exist as a man, He always existed as the second person of the trinity. So Mary is only Jesus' mother in the earthly sense. And as I already pointed out in my previous post (with Jesus' own words) what is important to God is NOT earthly relationships, but who does God's will, who is saved. True "born from above" believers are adopted into God's family, as sons and daughters of God.

Mary is not our "mother" because Mary is not a God, she is not on the same level as God.

Mary is Jesus' earthly mother, period. She is not OUR mother. You can play around with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.

I said I think that a minority do get carried away, but that doesn't apply to this thread. To answer your obsession, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more militant people in the mariology movement broke off and formed their own church. They strike me as off the wall as a lot of the protestant sects predicting certain dates that the world will end.

I don't think it's a small minority. I live in Mexico, and I can see firsthand statues and shrines all over the place of Mary/"Our Lady of Guadalupe." They have parades every year, that are a huge deal. In Mexico city, people crawl for long distances on their knees just to bow down before a painting of Mary.

Like I said, I know you guys don't do that sort of thing, but I think it is the false doctrines and ideas of the Catholic church that inevitably produce that kind of idolatry that I just described.

 

[RJB]

Why do you worship the state of Israel?

Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. The RCC/EO took that a step further and said she is the "Mother of God." That is a deceptive phrase, because it can easily mislead some people into thinking that Mary is somehow above God. God is eternal, there is no one above God, and no one before God.

Although Jesus began to exist as a man, He always existed as the second person of the trinity. So Mary is only Jesus' mother in the earthly sense. And as I already pointed out in my previous post (with Jesus' own words) what is important to God is NOT earthly relationships, but who does God's will, who is saved. True "born from above" believers are adopted into God's family, as sons and daughters of God.

Mary is not our "mother" because Mary is not a God, she is not on the same level as God.

Mary is Jesus' earthly mother, period. She is not OUR mother. You can play around with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.




I don't think it's a small minority. I live in Mexico, and I can see firsthand statues and shrines all over the place of Mary/"Our Lady of Guadalupe." They have parades every year, that are a huge deal. In Mexico city, people crawl for long distances on their knees just to bow down before a painting of Mary.

Like I said, I know you guys don't do that sort of thing, but I think it is the false doctrines and ideas of the Catholic church that inevitably produce that kind of idolatry that I just described.

 

[lilymc]

Why do you worship the state of Israel?

I don't worship anyone but God.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I can't be silent on something so important. This is just a bizarre view of Christianity.

Mary is not our mother, Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. HE even made a point (repeatedly) that the important thing was not who our earthly parents or siblings are, but who does the will of God... He said:

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mark 3:31-35​

It is good to honor and respect Mary, but that is not what the RCC (or EO, apparently) does. Calling someone the "Queen of Heaven", praying to Mary, bowing down before her statue, all of those things are treating her like a deity.

Stating "We're not worshipping her, we're venerating her" is akin to saying "I'm not laughing, I'm giggling." It's just semantics.

pcosmar is absolutely right. This entire thread is a justification for exalting Mary, and defending unbiblical ideas.

100% wrong. (Are you one of those people who has so much time on their hands that they can sit around dreaming up ways to troll forums? There is no way a reasoning person can come up with the kind of things you do on these sort of topics. )Dictionaries are your friends:

[h=1]venerate[/h]

[ven-uh-reyt]

• Examples
• Word Origin

verb (used with object), venerated, venerating. 1. to regard or treat with reverence; revere.




[h=1]worship[/h]

[wur-ship]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.


3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.


4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her).

verb (used with object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

verb (used without object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

 

[RJB]

I don't worship anyone but God.

Oh but millions of protestants do. Did you see that link I posted above? You believe that the State of Israel was the woman who was crowned based on unbiblical commentary (you admitted it.) I believe its my duty to interrupt a thread with 578+ posts to mention the unrelated protestant obsession with Israel worship.