Mary the Queen of Heaven

[erowe1]

Do you believe this development (what you call innovations) could not be God's good will and according to the Holy Spirit guiding the Church?

OK. Now this is interesting. You used to propound the belief that the traditions you defended went back to the apostles themselves, if not by written tradition, then at least by oral tradition.

If you now mean to leave that view, and switch to a different one, that God himself is behind later innovations that depart from the traditions of the apostles, then I will begin to address that. But please don't just throw out a bunch of mutually exclusive arguments like a handful of darts hoping you get lucky enough to hit the target with one and insist that I take my time to answer them all.

Are you really switching your position now? Because if not, and you still maintain that all of what Ignatius says about bishops must go back to the apostles, then let's just stick with that, rather than sending me off on some rabbit trail arguing against something else.

 

[erowe1]

But your evaluation is made from an argument of silence.

Please quote where I make my evaluation from an argument of silence.

I just referred you to a whole bunch of actual writings that we actually have. That's not silence.

 

[erowe1]

..

 

[TER]

OK. Now this is interesting. You used to propound the belief that the traditions you defended went back to the apostles themselves, if no by written tradition, then at least by oral tradition.

If you now mean to leave that view, and switch to a different one, that God himself is behind later innovations that depart from the traditions of the apostles, then I will begin to address that. But please don't just throw out a bunch of mutually exclusive arguments like a handful of darts hoping you get lucky enough to hit the target with one and insist that I take my time to answer them all.

Are you really switching your position now? Because if not, and you still maintain that all of what Ignatius says about bishops must go back to the apostles, then let's just stick with that, rather than sending me off on some rabbit trail arguing against something else.

The Apostles handed down the deposit of the faith, that is, the fundamentals of the teachings taught by Jesus Christ. These are the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow just as Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. These teachings are static in a dynamic world.

They also formed the Church and were it's founders. However, not everything was figured out from the get go. The living Church is dynamic, having people as it's members. Thus you see in the book of Acts the very first years of the Church forming and developing, growing and contending, addressing the various challenges it met in order to fulfill its mission of preaching the gospel and adding to the Church.

The story of the life of the Church did not end in Acts which I have said ad nauseum already. To continue the mission of spreading to all nations and baptizing them in the Holy Trinity, there have been stages and steps which has involved people and the Holy Spirit working in them. Thus we see in the beginning the ministry of elders, presbyters, and deacons established to assist in this mission. How did the Apostles figure this out? Likely from the teachings of Christ, even though it was not described in the NT. We do know He taught them for forty days after His Resurrection, presumably including these very things. However, perhaps not. Perhaps it was given to them by the Holy Spirit to construct such ministries. For we know Christ said that He would send them the Holy Spirit Who would lead them to all truths.

These Apostles in turn continued the mission, and appointed successors (by the transference of the Holy Spirit in holy ordination) who too carried the title of apostles in that they were given through the Holy Spirit the same authority as shepherds over the flock. They became living images of the Apostles in the life of the Church. Through time, these shepherds have continued the same ministry of spreading the gospel while confronting whatever specific challenges they and their flock faced.

So to the Orthodox, to say the word apostolic can denote coming from the twelve in original teaching or in authority, as both are inseparable because it is the same Holy Spirit working in them.

With regards to St. Ignatius, whether St. John whispered to St. Ignatius' ear what he wrote later or it was the Holy Spirit which worked through him according to the circumstances which were required, it is the same apostolic authority because it is the same Holy Spirit. Does this mean it was the exact teaching which the original twelve taught? No, it doesn't, even though I contend given the proximity of time, the relation of St. Ignatius with the Apostles, and the agreement by the Church spread far and wide, it was the very apostolic teachings not only in authority but in direct teachings. You desire more proof to believe this, unfortunately you will not find it. For me, a Bishop of Antioch, student of St. John, leader of the early Church and great martyr for Christ who was bishop from 69AD is apostolic in both authority and teachings, having continued the mission started by the Apostles and entrusted to him by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kevin007]

Terry, I know your post was to Kevin, but I just want to make a couple points here.

You seem to focused on mere wording.

There are different ways of describing the Old and New Covenants. Some people sum it up to: "Law vs Grace." Yes, there is more to it than that, but Kevin was just simplifying it, getting it down to the heart of the matter, for the purpose of this discussion. That is not incorrect, it's just one way of describing what you are referring to as the "Law of Faith."

I just did a quick search, and as far as I can see, the phrase "Law of Faith" is used only once in the bible, in Romans 3:27.

The word "Grace", in reference to salvation is used countless times, either directly or indirectly.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" 2 Timothy 1:9

For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Romans 6:14

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:20-24


"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people" Titus 2:11


"For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Galatians 2:19-21


"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!" Ephesians 2:4-5​

So instead of focusing on wording (for example, your point that we are still under "law" but it's called the "law of faith") we need to get to the true meaning, and look at what the New Covenant is, at its core. The New Covenant is about JESUS. It's not about doing works, it's about putting our FAITH in Him, in what HE did for us. We are saved by God's grace, through faith, not works!

Again, works are the inevitable fruit of a living, genuine faith. But works do not save us. All works-based religions (non-Christian or Christian) are teaching a lie, we cannot ever earn our way to heaven or attain salvation by going through a series of rituals or ceremonies.

thanks Lily, excellent reply. I agree completely. Not only that but even IF God "allowed" us to TRY to live out our faith,in order to please Him, we all fail miserably...thus Jesus, the PERFECT and only sacrifice for sin.

 

[Kevin007]

Out of all I wrote regarding the unity of the faith through the Holy Eucharist and how the Church has revolved around these Holy Gifts in its testifying to the truths, that is what you are hung up on?

The point I was making about Acts 15 is that here we see the Church confronting a challenge and then through prayer, deliberation, and consensus a new teaching and tradition was made and proclaimed in order to restore unity in faith. And AFTER that was done, as not only a visible sign of this unity but to mystically seal it through the Holy Spirit, they communed of the Holy Eucharist.

if you study Acts 15 carefully, esp. verses 36-41 the Council in Jerusalem was NOT an official governing body with regulatory power. It was a group of Apostles and elders who met and acted in a strictly advisory capacity.(non-binding)

 

[Kevin007]

Our salvation from death has been accomplished through Christ's work, and nothing anyone could do could have accomplished this. For this reason God became man and put on our nature and united it with His perfect and sinless divine nature, thereby conquering death for us. For this reason, everyone (sinner and saint) will be resurrected again. In this, Christ has saved all people.

But salvation from death is different from entering the Kingdom of Heaven. While it will still be by the grace of God alone that we will enter into the Kingdom after being raised from the dead, only those who Christ has judged worthy will enter therein. To those who are judged unworthy, their resurrection will be to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

How will we be worthy? By following Christ's commandments. By our faith and our works, He in His great wisdom will judge whether we will enter into the Kingdom.

So there is salvation from death, and there is salvation into the Kingdom. The first by grace as a free gift to all people, and the second by grace to those whom Christ has judged worthy according to their faith and their works.

well, I guess ALL of us are screwed because we cannot possibly follow Jesus' commandments. Remember- if you break just one- you break them all. You are mixing law and grace. They are completely incompatible. How God the Father judges whether we enter into Heaven is based SOLELY UPON IF WE ACCEPTED JESUS' FINISHED WORK AT CALVARY...NOT OURS.

eta- our FAITH in Christ is what saves us- alone and completely. Our WORKS are judged as to how many rewards we will receive, and imo how much authority Jesus gives us. Our WORKS are only judged at the Bema Seat Judgment or Judgment Seat of Christ- which is only made up of saved Believer's. The Great White Throne Judgment occurs at the end of the 1,000 years and is made up only of UNBeliever's. They are PUNISHED according to their deeds and works. None are saved.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

well, I guess ALL of us are screwed because we cannot possibly follow Jesus' commandments. Remember- if you break just one- you break them all. You are mixing law and grace. They are completely incompatible. How God the Father judges whether we enter into Heaven is based SOLELY UPON IF WE ACCEPTED JESUS' FINISHED WORK AT CALVARY...NOT OURS.

You are incorrect. You are thinking of Scholasticism. TER is correct.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

thanks Lily, excellent reply. I agree completely. Not only that but even IF God "allowed" us to TRY to live out our faith,in order to please Him, we all fail miserably...thus Jesus, the PERFECT and only sacrifice for sin.

Hmmm...correct me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall you not considering Paul an authority on this matter. All the scriptures you quoted there are from Pauline epistles, not synoptic gospel.

ETA: The "Pauline Triangle"-a theoretical device used by many protestants and non-denominationalists places equal emphasis on faith, grace, and works-and bases this on scripture. I don't have my notes on this anymore, but I learned it from a non-denominational minister whose education is thus (as you can see, no Orthodox or Catholic influences to be found. I won't give his name on forums, but will link you if you PM me):
University of Georgia
Ph.D. (ABD) - Historical Linguistics
Emory University
Th.M. - Hebrew Bible and Intercultural Studies
Emmanuel School of Religion
M.Div. - Old Testament/Hebrew Bible
Purdue University
B.S. - Aeronautical and Aerospace Engineering

 

[Kevin007]

what are you talking about? So how do you get to Heaven HB. Can you know now if you will be there? Answers please. I know- how? because of what Jesus did for me. He died for all my sins, every one. He knew every sin I would commit before I was born.

 

[Kevin007]

Hmmm...correct me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall you not considering Paul an authority on this matter. All the scriptures you quoted there are from Pauline epistles, not synoptic gospel.

ETA: The "Pauline Triangle"-a theoretical device used by many protestants and non-denominationalists places equal emphasis on faith, grace, and works-and bases this on scripture. I don't have my notes on this anymore, but I learned it from a non-denominational minister whose education is thus (as you can see, no Orthodox or Catholic influences to be found. I won't give his name on forums, but will link you if you PM me):
University of Georgia
Ph.D. (ABD) - Historical Linguistics
Emory University
Th.M. - Hebrew Bible and Intercultural Studies
Emmanuel School of Religion
M.Div. - Old Testament/Hebrew Bible
Purdue University
B.S. - Aeronautical and Aerospace Engineering

they are not equal, no. Without faith in Jesus, you cannot be saved. Without Jesus you can do good works, and God's grace falls on both the just and unjust. Faith in Jesus as your Savior is the most important by far.

 

[Terry1]

well, I guess ALL of us are screwed because we cannot possibly follow Jesus' commandments. Remember- if you break just one- you break them all. You are mixing law and grace. They are completely incompatible..

No Kevin, again-- you are the one confusing Old Testament Mosaic Law with the New Testament Law of Faith. Faith is your good works that you do-- because under the New Testament Law, what you do now--you do by Faith in Jesus which is the very nature of Christ in you and not by the dead works of the Old Law which were done by ceremony and rituals only. Why do you think that Jesus Himself told you to let your light shine by doing good works that glorify the Father in heaven? Works of faith are the only possible way you can bear any fruit of the spirit. Your good works are your light and evidence to the world of who you are which glorify God in heaven. These are not dead works that you believe were done absent faith and under the Old Mosaic Law by ritual and ceremony only. What we do now is done because of the nature of Christ in us--we do it naturally--being led of the Spirit and not by ceremonial Law as it was done under the Old Law/Moses Law.

How God the Father judges whether we enter into Heaven is based SOLELY UPON IF WE ACCEPTED JESUS' FINISHED WORK AT CALVARY...NOT OURS.

Ask yourself how we "accept Jesus". How do we witness Jesus to others and what did Jesus ask us to do to give evidence to the lost souls of who we are and what we believe? Do you think we could witness to the lost without helping them and living Godly lives as examples of Christ? Do you think anyone would know who we are if we never give an example of Christ in our own lives?

Here is the word of God to give proof of what I'm telling you:



Philippians 3:17

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.



1 Thessalonians 1:7

So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.



2 Thessalonians 3:9

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.



2 Peter 2:6

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

eta- our FAITH in Christ is what saves us- alone and completely. Our WORKS are judged as to how many rewards we will receive, and imo how much authority Jesus gives us. Our WORKS are only judged at the Bema Seat Judgment or Judgment Seat of Christ- which is only made up of saved Believer's. The Great White Throne Judgment occurs at the end of the 1,000 years and is made up only of UNBeliever's. They are PUNISHED according to their deeds and works. None are saved.

In this above statement you've just made, you have attempted to separate faith from our good works. This is where you are mistaken. Faith is our good works. You seem to believe that Faith and belief are one and the same thing and they most certainly are not! Faith is the evidence of your belief which are your good works. It's the only way we can do good works is by grace which is the (power of God) and through faith which is (the action, fruit, light and evidence of our belief). Belief and Faith go hand in hand, but they have two completely different functions with regard to our salvation. No one would believe you are a Christian if you live a life opposite the will of God. Hence--we can not be once saved always saved because living a Godly life begins after our confessions of belief by what we do and say to others. Living a Godly life is enduring in doing good until the very end our lives because this is how God tests our faith. That test of our faith does not end the point of belief and confession--this is where our test begins in this life and to the very end of it.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Revelation 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

We can not remain in the Book of Life unless we confess Jesus is Lord and continually throughout our lives abide in Christ. So you then must ask yourself why God would then "blot" them out from it. Being blotted from the Book of Life happens as a result of what we did in this life. So God is telling you right here that no one is once saved always saved. They can be "blotted out" from the Book of Life.



Ask yourself this--what have we to "overcome" if we are once saved always saved? That is a deadly doctrine and the effects of this doctrine are people living ungodly lives thinking they're still saved no matter what they do or say to others in this life. People who believe this doctrine think that their one-time confession will erase and annihilate every rotten evil thing they say or do without consequences or repentance from them. Also believing that there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation and fall from faith and grace, when Paul tells you the exact opposite. That it's most certainly possible to fall from grace and faith and from the state of Elect in this life. John 15: 5 and Hebrews 6:4 This is not how our Lord God designed salvation for mankind and definitely not biblical.

 

[Terry1]

they are not equal, no. Without faith in Jesus, you cannot be saved. Without Jesus you can do good works, and God's grace falls on both the just and unjust. Faith in Jesus as your Savior is the most important by far.

And Faith is our "good works"--our "works of faith" our "light which glorifies God" and our "fruit of the Spirit". Without the branch bearing fruit, it is cut away from the True Vine/Jesus and burned--John 15: 1-5 and Hebrews 6:4.

What you are actually arguing is that you can still go out here rape, murder, rob and live a rotten life evil life and still be saved. That is not how faith works my friend.

what are the two greatest *COMMANDMENTS*? We are commanded by Jesus to live Godly lives by loving each other just the same as we do God. How do we love one another? By doing good works to each other and revealing our lights in this dark world. We weren't asked by God to do this--He commanded it. This is what faith is of which without--all through the NT we are told we have no faith at all--it's dead and grace of no effect. They have fallen from salvation at this point.

The essence of Love is Sacrifice. If we never do anything based upon what it is that we believe--there is no love. Words and confessions mean nothing without an action--a work to back them up. And that my friend is what Faith is and how it works.

The day will come when we will all have to give account to God for the way we lived here in this life. When the Books of Life and death are opened and every single thing we said and did are recorded in our lifes history in those books. All mankind will be judged for their works here in this life.

Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[erowe1]

if you study Acts 15 carefully, esp. verses 36-41 the Council in Jerusalem was NOT an official governing body with regulatory power. It was a group of Apostles and elders who met and acted in a strictly advisory capacity.(non-binding)

Why do you believe this?

 

[erowe1]

Most scholars believe the Didache was written sometime between the middle and later first century, from dates as early as 40 AD.

I'm still waiting on the names of these scholars, and (if they really exist at all) your reason for believing they represent the majority.

 

[TER]

I'm still waiting on the names of these scholars, and (if they really exist at all) your reason for believing they represent the majority.

I think we are in agreement that most date it before the end of the first century, towards the last two decades. Some have suggested an earlier date and others a later date. The Church maintains it to be apostolic in authority and a product of the early Church. The exact date is not as important as much as how it was regarded by the Church. If you would like to share what you have learned about it in your studies, please share it. I have not studied the modern scholarship as closely as you have and am willing to learn more about it.

 

[erowe1]

I think we are in agreement that most date it before the end of the first century, towards the last two decades.

Do you have a source for this?

Some do. But most?

Most scholars date the Gospel of Matthew to the 80's AD (I don't happen to agree with them). And the Didache is later than Matthew.

And your earlier claim about "most scholars" said middle to later first century, with some as early as AD 40. Do any scholars date it as early as AD 40? You must have had someone in mind unless you were bluffing and unwisely thought you could get away with it.

 

[erowe1]

The exact date is not as important as much as how it was regarded by the Church.

How was it regarded by the Church?

I know of zero references to it by any Church Fathers. The Church, including the EOC, knew nothing about it for centuries until it was rediscovered about a century ago.

 

[TER]

John Robinson dates it somewhere between 40-60 AD.
Aaron Milavec and Thomas O'Loughlin date it early.

Why do say that it must have been produced after the Gospels?

 

[TER]

How was it regarded by the Church?

I know of zero references to it by any Church Fathers. The Church, including the EOC, knew nothing about it for centuries until it was rediscovered about a century ago.

Eusebius, Athanasios and Rufinus, all Church Fathers in the fourth century refer to it
Some considered it canonical and others apocryphal.