Mary the Queen of Heaven

[TER]

Mary worship is strictly forbidden. It is unfortunate that some do. I assure you, it is not the teaching, praxis or worship of the Orthodox Church (or the Catholic Church from my understanding). I love her like I love my own mother, but I worship neither of them as my God. This may be difficult for someone on the outside to comprehend who does not have the same understanding of the saints and the important role the Virgin has played in our salvation, but it true nonetheless. The Theotokos is beyond the Seraphim and the Cherubim in honor in the Kingdom of Heaven, but she finds her existence, being and salvation through Christ as we all do.

As for the woman in Revelation, I understand that you have not come across in your readings that she is being symbolized in Chapter 12. If you read commentary from Orthodox writers, you will find that both Israel (the Church) and Mary is being symbolized by the woman in those verses.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Mary worship is strictly forbidden. It is unfortunate that some do. I assure you, it is not the teaching, praxis or worship of the Orthodox Church (or the Catholic Church from my understanding). I love her like I love my own mother, but I worship neither of them as my God. This may be difficult for someone on the outside to comprehend who does not have the same understanding of the saints and the important role the Virgin has played in our salvation, but it true nonetheless. The Theotokos is beyond the Seraphim and the Cherubim in honor in the Kingdom of Heaven, but she finds her existence, being and salvation through Christ as we all do.

As for the woman in Revelation, I understand that you have not come across in your readings that she is being symbolized in Chapter 12. If you read commentary from Orthodox writers, you will find that both Israel (the Church) and Mary is being symbolized by the woman in those verses.

Indeed. It is unfortunate when people go beyond veneration into worship/idolatry.

 

[Kevin007]

Mary is seen as a type as a type of the Church, and the Church as the new Israel, therefore prophecies such as Rev 12 and titles like Daughter of Sion are generally applied to Mary, the Church, and Israel.

From Lumen Gentium:
"...she is hailed as a pre-eminent and singular member of the Church, and as its type and excellent exemplar in faith and charity."

"63. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with His singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.(18*) For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. (19*) By her belief and obedience, not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the new Eve she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith, not in the word of the ancient serpent, but in that of God's messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is He whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren,(299) namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love."

not true at all. Which Apostle said this? This is the RCC incorrect interpretation so they can build a false Gospel.

 

[TER]

not true at all. Which Apostle said this? This is the RCC incorrect interpretation so they can build a false Gospel.

The Gospels were written as an aid and tool for the Church to spread the message that the Messiah had come. They are Christocentric in their scope and purpose. They were not written as a complete anthology of everything that Christ did nor as a complete hagiography of the people mentioned within them. For example, the remaining lives of the Apostles were not written in the NT but we know things about them and their ministries through the oral traditions passed down in the churches they established.

If someone limits themselves to the Holy Bible and in this apart from the witness and tradition of the Church, then a lot of the wonder and beauty of the Christian faith is missed. The Church after all did not stop functioning at the end of Acts and the Holy Spirit did not stop working in it after the last page of the Bible was written. Neither is the Holy Scriptures the complete story. While there is sufficient wisdom in the Holy Scriptures to bring a person to Christ, the fullness of the faith is not and has never been limited to the Bible. Just because something is not explicitly written in the Bible, it does not mean it is not true and or wasn't part of the deposit of the faith which preexisted the New Testament.

 

[Kevin007]

The Gospels were written as an aid and tool for the Church to spread the message that the Messiah had come. They are Christocentric in their scope and purpose. They were not written as a complete anthology of everything that Christ did nor as a complete hagiography of the people mentioned within them. For example, the remaining lives of the Apostles were not written in the NT but we know things about them and their ministries through the oral traditions passed down in the churches they established.

If someone limits themselves to the Holy Bible and in this apart from the witness and tradition of the Church, then a lot of the wonder and beauty of the Christian faith is missed. The Church after all did not stop functioning at the end of Acts and the Holy Spirit did not stop working in it after the last page of the Bible was written. Neither is the Holy Scriptures the complete story. While there is sufficient wisdom in the Holy Scriptures to bring a person to Christ, the fullness of the faith is not and has never been limited to the Bible. Just because something is not explicitly written in the Bible, it does not mean it is not true and part of the deposit of the faith which preexisted the New Testament.

The Bible disagrees.

 

[TER]

The Bible disagrees.

So do you think everything Christ did in His three year ministry was written in the Bible?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The Bible disagrees.

False. (Especially if the Bible in question is Protestant) A great deal of what we know about Christ and His Gospel comes to us from tradition, oral and otherwise. Reading scripture simply wasn't an option for Christians till ~70 AD or so, depending on who you ask. And even then not many could read. The texts were not even available to the masses till Gutenberg invented his press. So, I'd like to see proof of your claim.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

not true at all. Which Apostle said this? This is the RCC incorrect interpretation so they can build a false Gospel.

d00d, not every Christian practice comes from the Bible. Do you take communion every Sunday? That's not biblical. In fact, Christians only partook of the Eucharist a few times a year until a few centuries ago (IDR the exact date now). Do you consider the bread and cup to be figurative? That's not biblical. Etc, etc.

 

[TER]

In the book of Acts we read how for 40 days after Christ rose from the dead, He was with His Apostles and taught them things pertaining to the Kingdom of Heaven. Oh how wonderful it would have been if the Apostles wrote down those things! But they didn't have to, because those teachings were written in their hearts and they became living ministers to these truths in their divinely given roles of constructing and leading the Church as He commanded. Perhaps it was unlawful at the time to write some of those things down according to the circumstances of those times and the timing. In other words, spiritual meat when the the majority of the listeners where still struggling to digest milk. Indeed, in the earliest years the mission was to spread the news that the Messiah had come and Jesus has risen from the dead. That was sufficient for those times. The other wonders and teachings, though important, we're not the priorities. It was not until later, when the persecutions stopped and the Church came out of hiding and the good news had spread far and wide did the Church turn to the other wonders and treasures of the faith in debate and contemplation. Sort of like how in this movement the priority is to get the message out about limited Constitutional governance. When those things become more established and mainstream, then the other more specific and even isoteric questions could be more clearly debated and widespread.

 

[TER]

d00d, not every Christian practice comes from the Bible. Do you take communion every Sunday? That's not biblical. In fact, Christians only partook of the Eucharist a few times a year until a few centuries ago (IDR the exact date now). Do you consider the bread and cup to be figurative? That's not biblical. Etc, etc.

HB, according to Acts, the faithful would get together every Lord's Day (namely Sunday) for fellowship, prayer, and partaking of the Holy Eucharist. Of course, when the persecutions ramped up, that became difficult and impossible for many. But your point remains that the Scriptures are but one (albeit important) part of Holy Tradition.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

HB, according to Acts, the faithful would get together every Lord's Day (namely Sunday) for fellowship, prayer, and partaking of the Holy Eucharist. Of course, when the persecutions ramped up, that became difficult and impossible for many. But your point remains that the Scriptures are but one (albeit important) part of Holy Tradition.

Yes, that's what I meant to say. :/ thanks ~hugs~

 

[TER]

Council of Ephesus 431 AD

We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her.

 

[TER]

Theodore of Mopsuestia The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]

"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation".

 

[TER]

St. Ambrose of Milan The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]

The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?

 

[TER]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]

The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness.

 

[TER]

St. Methodius Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]

Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away.

 

[TER]

St. Peter of Alexandria The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]

They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs.

 

[Kevin007]

St. Methodius Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]

Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away.

this isnt in the bible, nor any of the other things. Only the Apostles who were moved by the Holy Spirit completed the Bible.

 

[TER]

this isnt in the bible, nor any of the other things.

I understand that. Thank you.

 

[TER]

St. Gregory of Nazianzus Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]

If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead.