Mandatory vaccinations

american empire said:
no where in the post did I say here were no side effects. The medicines you take for sat hypertension, or diabetes or anything have greater s/e than most vaccines and the doctor knows this and sometimes tells the patient. Would you not want to take these medicines? If not then as a physician I have to respect your right and ask for you to waiver and sign that you were told the pros and cons and that you denied to choose to use them. That way we could save our asses if someone came along 5 yrs later with their attorney saying you didnt tell me in full detail the pros ...so now the progress of disease is your negligence and we are going to sue your ass off....people do that.

what I am saying is that I DO understand your right to deny the vaccinations.....I may be a vegetarian but I will fight for your right to eat pork.....I hope I cleared that.

Yes I understand your concern with govt, lobbyists, and pharmaceutical companies making profit out of these which is wrong but who do you think should sell vaccines....as much as you hate regulations sometimes it is required b/c the companies would go berserk and start vaccinations for stuff we don't even need......sometime free market capitalism can be negative when there is greed involved when dealing with human life....regulations by the govt are required b/c the companies would start demanding fortunes for their services....unfortunately they are....

there are vaccines for stuff like HPV that is NOT mandatory but women at risk can use for cervical cancer...so its not like everything is mandatory and they are out to get you....


RJB
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Re-read what I wrote..My statements were that most people who ardently want a right to choose have experienced adverse reactions...Not that you weren't acknowledging they occur, but that it causes a higher level of passion against these vaccines. Not only that but that the methods by which some of the vaccines are created directly conflict with many people's moral values. Yet we are forcing people to have these vaccines done, or face criminal repercussions.http://www.naturalnews.com/022242.html Do you know that the DFACS would love to use this as an avenue to badger parents for being neglectful?
As for the HPV vaccine, you are aware , being a doctor, that there is some heavy lobbying being done to have this mandated for children as young as 11, correct?? I am not seeing boogey men,I don't think people are out to get me, the government is corrupt, as well as medical institutions, and the pharmaceutical companies. There is collusion.
I haven't mentioned who should be selling the vaccines, I mentioned who should not be mandating their usage.
The choice should be up to the consumer. As the parent we are responsible for our children, and some of us disagree with the ethics of taking a life to possibly save a life and forcing potentially dangerous products into small children. We should be entitled to chosewhat is in the best interests of our children and ourselves as consumers. Fear mongering is how the government keeps the sheep in check. They do not want people to be "different". Lobbyists use the fear to make the consequences seem worse then not accepting these shots and the pharmaceutical companies reap huge rewards for an unnecessary shot.(such as chicken pox).
You stated:" but you guys forget some diseases are infectious and your irresponsibility might affect me...for eg if you contact TB b/c you were not vaccinated then I can contact that disease too....." I ask again when did TB become a mandatory vaccine?
You stated:"vaccines for hep b prevent contacting the disease hence preventing you from getting active and chronic disease, liver cirhosis or in later stages cancer...." Okay so we all take hep b vaccines now as a regimine for protection from this disease caused by having sex with an infected person without using a condom,sharing drug needles,having a tattoo or body piercing done with dirty tools that were used on someone else,getting pricked with a needle that has infected blood on it (health care workers can get hepatitis B this way),living with someone who has hepatitis B,sharing a toothbrush or razor with an infected person,or traveling to countries where hepatitis B is common. Hmm...every baby has to have this why????? Before they are 3 days old!!!
And the side effects for a shot to protect junkies and prostitutes that is routinely jammed into infants under penalty of neglect?? Let's see:"Common reactions to the hepatitis B vaccine among those who can communicate include headache, nausea, fever and fatigue oddly the same symptoms as the hard to catch disease.As for more serious side effects, the Hepatitis B vaccine has also been reported to cause a variety of immune and neurological health problems.There have been persistent reports of the vaccine being related to sudden infant death syndrome which is most likely to occur at 2 months, 4 month and 6 months exactly the same time as the hepatitis B vaccine series is often given.Other reports indicate such adverse reactions such as Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), transverse myelitis, optic neuritis, and multiple sclerosis as well as immune system dysfunction including chronic arthritis.Some speculations have also come about insisting on a connecting with Autism and the hepatitis B vaccine as well as several more on the recommended immunization schedule.
There has been an alarming number of newborn and infant deaths following the injecting of the hepatitis B vaccine."( from
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/98416/the_dangers_of_a_hepatitis_b_vaccination.html )

I also noticed you glossed over the entire point I was making on the medical ethics of taking a life to possibly save lives.... This will not square with many people's ethics and yet the government can use this as a case for neglect.
 
hairball said:
Long range prognosis? I don't know, lets see, my mom, just about seventy, doing a full load of college to get her degree so she can be a certified interpreter, my dad still going for miles long walks though he is into late seventies. They grew up in the time when millions suffered, but their kids were saved because of vaccines. They got them. I am 44, my wife 55, we are more than healthy enough for our age. I still get carded for booze, and she doesn't swim much because she her muscle mass keeps her casually sinking, so she hikes a lot. Our kids grew up on vaccinations, and they are fine. Our grandkids are getting the same round, and they have no problems.

So there, four generations, no problems, short term or long term. Some choose to eschew the history and reason. Being a Ron supporter, you should not be against a company making a buck. That is Capitalism. That what they sell also takes care of the suffering of humanity does not make them evil. Jim Hensen died because he had the foolish belief that all medicine is hogwash. He died a fool who could have been cured with a shot and a few pills.

To actively state that vccines are part of some dark conspiracy is blind to the history and benefits of such. Having come in on the tailend of that era, and having parents that lived through that, I am not so foolish.

I guess blindness comes with paranoia.
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Hmm.. Being a Ron Paul supporter then you think you would be able to understand that lobbyists do damage to the consumers right to choose...The current mandates are not the free market capitalism you are so ignorantly stating the pharmaceuticals are reaping rewards from.

Since your family never suffered any ill consequence those who have had adverse reactions don't really exist right?? We should not choose what goes into our bodies because your family faired well??? A majority of your family hasn't been forced to take the increasing number of shots they are forcing on parents each year with fear of criminal reprisals.

Stop being so rude and obnoxious, I am not saying big dark conspiracy theory here. That is just a way to be dismissive to what we can all acknowledge exists which is some of the largest lobbying groups in Washington are big named pharmaceuticals. They prey on fear to force an increase in profit. There is no need for the Hep B being mandatory. This is a recent mandatory introduction, something none in your family had to take until within the last couple years. As well as mandatory chicken pox. Another mandatory in the last several years, that all the healthy individuals in your family were not forced to take until the last 5 years. The HPV is one they want to make mandatory for girls as young as 11. It will not end until we say enough!!!! How many people do you know of died from Hep B or chicken pox???Hmmm???

I guess arrogance comes to those who have not had to suffer the consequences of an adverse reaction from forced unnecessary vaccinations with little to no choice on their introduction into their children's blood systems. We should all be so lucky to be calling others paranoid and blind because we can speak with such smug arrogance as you. Maybe you should think about what rights we should be entitled to under our Constitutional government when a right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness means to me the right to choose when and if to vaccinate instead of what time frame the government imposes and how many more shots they add each year because one industry holds sway with our politicians.
 
Here is another physician’s opinion concerning immunizations from chapter 19, ‘IMMUNIZATION AGAINST DISEASE: A medical time bomb?’ from the book, ‘How To Raise a Healthy Child…In Spite of Your Doctor’ pages 210-211, by Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.:

“Although I administered them myself during my early years of practice, I have become a steadfast opponent of mass inoculations because of the myriad hazards they present. The subject is so vast and complex that it deserves a book of its own. Consequently, I must be content here with summarizing my objections to the fanatic zeal with which pediatricians blindly shoot foreign proteins into the body of your child without knowing what eventual damage they may cause.

Here is the core of my concern:

1) There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease. While it is true that some once common childhood diseases have diminished or disappeared since inoculations were introduced. No one really knows why, although improved living conditions may be the reason. If immunizations were responsible for the disappearance of these diseases in the United States, one must ask why they disappeared simultaneously in Europe, where mass immunizations did not take place.

2) It is commonly believed that the Salk vaccine was responsible for halting the polio epidemics that plagued American children in the 1940s and 1950s. If so, why did the epidemics also end in Europe, where polio vaccine was not so extensively used? Of greater current relevance, why is the Sabin live virus vaccine still being administered to children when Dr. Jonas Salk, who pioneered the first vaccine, points out that Sabin vaccine is now causing most of the polio cases that appear. Continuing to force this vaccine on children is irrational medical behavior that simply confirms my contention that doctors consistently repeat their mistakes. With the polio vaccine we are witnessing a rerun of the medical reluctance to abandon the smallpox vaccination, which remained as the only source of smallpox-related deaths for three decades after the disease had disappeared.

3) There are significant risks associated with every immunization and numerous contraindications that may make it dangerous for the shots to be given to your child. Yet doctors administer them routinely, usually without warning parents of the hazards and without determining whether the immunization is contraindicated for the child. No child should be immunized without making that determination, yet small armies of children are routinely lined up in clinics to receive a shot in the arm with no questions asked!

4) While the myriad short-term hazards of most immunizations are known (but rarely explained), no one knows the long-term consequences of injecting foreign proteins into the body of your child. Even more shocking is the fact that no one is making any structured effort to find out.

5) There is a growing suspicion that immunization against relatively harmless childhood disease may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases since mass inoculations were introduced. These are fearful diseases such as cancer, leukemia, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, lupus erythematosus, and the Guillain-Barre syndrome. An autoimmune disease can be explained simply as one in which the body’s defense mechanisms cannot distinguish between foreign invaders and ordinary body tissues, with the consequence that the body begins to destroy itself. Have we traded mumps and measles for cancer and leukemia?”

As a parent, I highly recommend this book.

This is just my take; medical solutions are sold just like new cars, latest wars or politicians touting change—it is important to be informed consumers.
 
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If there is no correlation between vaccines and negative reactions, why did the government setup a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) in addition to VAERS - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System?

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

Oh wait, I'm sure all those reported "injuries" aren't really related to the vaccines, just coincindence, and even if they were, they're statistically insignificant, and so what of the people suffering, call it "casualties of war", right? BS!!! :mad:

And to the medical professionals that posted, I do not doubt you are intelligent people but you have been indoctrinated to believe what you believe about medicine. You are not GODS. To be frank with you, no allopathic Dr has ever been able to help me with my medical problems (which I believe were caused by or exacerbated by vaccines), all they do is say, "We don't know what's wrong with you, your tests are normal, here's a drug, hope it makes you feel better, goodbye." Never attempting to find out the root cause of the symptoms. Only recently have I discovered my adrenal glands are so poorly functioning by going to a Naturopath (also an MD, who by the way, does not vaccinate his family). I believe the Creator/God/Whoever made our immune systems to function correctly by acquired immunity thru the mother and without intervention by foreign bodies (i.e. vaccines, etc). I was a healthy baby, but in my case, for whatever reason, the vaccines IMO, screwed up my immune system (and god knows what other things) and that is why I am VERY SICK at an age I should be enjoying life. I believe this wholeheartedly. I cannot explain the suffering I have been thru and I am only 33, not that the pro-vaccine people care anyways, because as some people have put it, I should basically just be sterilized and/or put out of my misery. Well guess what, too bad! I'm not going out like that...

I will add, chronic illness is becoming rampant and people want answers, not chemicals that simply mask the real problem(s), and could possibly cause more even problems later on.
 
wow ....seriously guys....doctors biggest nightmare patients like you guys....
but its good for business....when you guys roll in with tetanus, diotheria, pertusis, measles, mumps, rubella, hep .....
vaccines are being built for fighting cancer....they have one for bladder cancer already.....
the thing is reading all the posts I don't want to argue b/c you guys obviously have a mindset and don't know how vaccines work....don't get me wrong...b/c your research is comendable but when I read stuff like

I believe the Creator/God/Whoever made our immune systems to function correctly by acquired immunity thru the mother and without intervention by foreign bodies (i.e. vaccines, etc). I was a healthy baby, but in my case, for whatever reason, the vaccines IMO, screwed up my immune system (and god knows what other things) and that is why I am VERY SICK at an age I should be enjoying life.
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usually for the first 9 mths the child gets antibodies from the mother which are IgM ....what do you think happens to the baby after 9 mths?...starts producing their own....hence the MMR vaccines at 15 mths....btw the word "acquired" immunity is when you get vaccinated and passive is when you get them directly like from the mom.....might want to look into that....I am sorry that you feel ill ...but if there were problems with your adrenals then I guess it wasnt hard to detect....but i don't know the details of your illness so i wouldnt comment.....

my point here is not picking on cowcat's post and shredding it...

you guys all make good arguments...but unfortunately they all lack knowledge about how the human body functions and how vaccines work....

you need to read up on pathology and immunology and pharma why we require the vaccines we do....we as doctors are not indoctrinated contrary to what some here believe...the reason we even chose the profession is b/c we question everything....if something is not based on science we throw it out the window....

all i can say is to the op is if he isnt comfortable getting the vaccine ....go to your local doctor...explain your concerns...trust me the doc will not roll his eyes...(he might later)....he will explain the reason why you need them and tell you what would happen if you don't....

but in short he will explain its for prevention....
 
american empire said:
wow ....seriously guys....doctors biggest nightmare patients like you guys....
but its good for business....when you guys roll in with tetanus, diotheria, pertusis, measles, mumps, rubella, hep .....
vaccines are being built for fighting cancer....they have one for bladder cancer already.....
the thing is reading all the posts I don't want to argue b/c you guys obviously have a mindset and don't know how vaccines work....don't get me wrong...b/c your research is comendable but when I read stuff like



usually for the first 9 mths the child gets antibodies from the mother which are IgM ....what do you think happens to the baby after 9 mths?...starts producing their own....hence the MMR vaccines at 15 mths....btw the word "acquired" immunity is when you get vaccinated and passive is when you get them directly like from the mom.....might want to look into that....I am sorry that you feel ill ...but if there were problems with your adrenals then I guess it wasnt hard to detect....but i don't know the details of your illness so i wouldnt comment.....

my point here is not picking on cowcat's post and shredding it...

you guys all make good arguments...but unfortunately they all lack knowledge about how the human body functions and how vaccines work....

you need to read up on pathology and immunology and pharma why we require the vaccines we do....we as doctors are not indoctrinated contrary to what some here believe...the reason we even chose the profession is b/c we question everything....if something is not based on science we throw it out the window....

all i can say is to the op is if he isnt comfortable getting the vaccine ....go to your local doctor...explain your concerns...trust me the doc will not roll his eyes...(he might later)....he will explain the reason why you need them and tell you what would happen if you don't....

but in short he will explain its for prevention....
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Great so you are deragatory towards an actual individual who has suffered from vaccine repercussions, you ignore my repetitive requests for how using aborted fetal cells should be ignored (and is not openly stated to individuals they are forcing these shots on), you ignore my questioning the need of a newborn to have a mandated Hep b shot, why chicken pox is a mandatory vaccine, my repetitive question to when TB became mandatory (it was your initial argument as to how we would be vectors of infection!), and why we should make HPV a mandatory shot for 11 year olds???

You know I am pretty aggravated, you told us to ask you questions you would be more than happy to answer and reassure us, but all you did was be dismissive, ignore repetitive direct questions, and refused to acknowledge reasoning for why certain seemingly unnecessary shots are mandatory to the extent of criminal repercussions despite the obscurity of capacity to contract said diseases or the innocuous nature of the illness itself. Instead now you bring up the MMR vaccine which like the chicken pox vaccine is derived from the aborted fetal cells I am referring to in asking how this is ethical. Why again did you tell us to ask you questions????

So I'm willing to acknowledge that there has been statistically a decrease in major childhood illnesses. I also think there is statistical information that these vaccines have adverse reactions some of which exceed the repercussions of possibility of contracting the disease warrant mandating the vaccine be taken for on the governments timetable. I also question the ethics of certain vaccines formed from aborted fetal cells. This should not be mandated, and it should not be my responsibility to prove religious conflict to absolve myself of criminal repercussions of child neglect. The government, as usual, has overstepped its boundaries.

I don't guess I will hear a response from you, but sure would be nice to know from a medical professional why we should overlook these specific reasons just so we can accept that the government is only interested in the welfare of its citizens...I don't see boogey men, I am just rational enough to know that the government is a self serving entity. There is a world of difference in those two views on life.
 
american empire said:
wow ....seriously guys....doctors biggest nightmare patients like you guys....
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I can't even believe you are a doctor after a statement like that. Let's get it right, doctors like you are patients' worst nightmares!

american empire said:
but its good for business....when you guys roll in with tetanus, diotheria, pertusis, measles, mumps, rubella, hep .....
vaccines are being built for fighting cancer....they have one for bladder cancer already.....
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"good for business" eh? Nice - I see how you think of patients. I NEVER in a million years would've worried about getting any of the above-mentioned diseases. But now because of your "wonderful" vaccines, I have been slowly tortured to death over the course of my entire life.

american empire said:
usually for the first 9 mths the child gets antibodies from the mother which are IgM ....what do you think happens to the baby after 9 mths?...starts producing their own....hence the MMR vaccines at 15 mths....btw the word "acquired" immunity is when you get vaccinated and passive is when you get them directly like from the mom.....might want to look into that
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Whatever! Fine, passive immunity, you get my point. You are mincing words here. Excuse my technical faux-paus!

american empire said:
I am sorry that you feel ill ...but if there were problems with your adrenals then I guess it wasnt hard to detect
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Well apparantly it WAS hard to detect because a regular endo couldn't figure it out after running seemingly every test under the sun. I had to get a saliva test for them to figure it out. Not only that but most allopathic Drs do not recognize "adrenal fatigue"...only Addison's Disease. So basically, I have to have a disease before I can get any help. Doctors really need to start learning more about endocrine/hormone dysfunction and how to fix it.

american empire said:
but unfortunately they all lack knowledge about how the human body functions and how vaccines work....
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Yes, we all know, you are the experts.

american empire said:
you need to read up on pathology and immunology and pharma why we require the vaccines we do....we as doctors are not indoctrinated contrary to what some here believe...the reason we even chose the profession is b/c we question everything....if something is not based on science we throw it out the window....
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Well, your "science" is flawed IMO. There are many, many, many other MDs and DOs out there who are going the naturopathic route and believe that vaccines are NOT necessary or good.

And by the way, my "God" comment is not because I am some super-religious far right Christian fanatic. I do not even consider myself a religion, I just believe in a Creator that knows more than the Creation.

I don't want to argue with you. This subject makes me very angry, and that's the last thing I need right now.
 
LivingFree said:
After learning that vaccines cause more harm than good I'll never get another vaccine. I'll just say it's for "religious" reasons.
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ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. DON'T LISTEN TO THIS. YOU WILL KILL US ALL WITH THIS NONSENSE>

If you are not vaccinated you benefit form the masses of people with vaccination. When that percentage drops, VERY SERIOUS viruses will start spreading again.

That's why polio is starting to spread again in Africa .

Look up how many people died from measels, and smallpox. MORE THAN BOTH WORLD WARS!
 
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. DON'T LISTEN TO THIS. YOU WILL KILL US ALL WITH THIS NONSENSE

There are a lot of substantive critiques of vaccination in this read, including the most impressive avalanche of academic citations from RJB. Your all-caps fearmongering is not useful and to my mind is a tacit admission of the lack of substance on the pro-vaccination side. Most of the pro-vaccination arguments I've seen in this thread ultimately boil down to the old argument from authority: 'Well, I'm not going to address these studies you mention, and I actually have no data on long-term effects - but I'm a (doctor / public health official / nurse), so please accept my regurgitation of the talking points I was taught in med school as if they were gospel'. No thanks, no dice. I know that a great many people get vaccinated and suffer no ill effects (I am one), but most people survive a round of russian roulette as well - that does not make it a good idea.
 
I know this is a "my word against your word" thing, but I know of a nurse who quit the medical field because of the drugs the pharma companies are using, and the vaccines...

I do think we should get vaccines for some things (but I won't force you to do it), but it should be an ABSOLUTE minimum. There's a number of cures that have been squashed because of their powerful benefits, but lack of profit when being produced. It's probably, theoretically, better to catch the disease/virus, then to cure it--your body will acquire a natural immunity, and you'll be wiping it out with a non-deadly (and in most cases non-side effect) medicine.

Please, don't get me started on the medical industry....they're just about as bad (if not worse) than the military industrial complex.
 
Yea, I still don't understand how some people can so adamantly defend vaccines? My only conclusion is that they've done NO RESEARCH of their own, no truth seeking. Is it just laziness, willfull ignorance, both?
 
Just think of the number of Vax's you got as a kid- maybe five? Polio, Rubella, Mumps, Measles, and Tetanus. Now think of the number they give today. Something like 25-30 shots before 2 yrs old. That is just insane.
 
My parents refused to let the government force me to take a hepatitus B shot to get into middle school

The last shot I received was like... 7 year ago. It was a tetanus shot. I smashed my face against the ground, and they said I needed it. Haven't taken any shots since, and don't plan to after all the shit I've heard.
 
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