MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT: Lawyers for Ron Paul Lawsuit NOTE: Having the lawsuit not up 4 debate

Hasn't this case always been about "Guidance" going forward. The Federal Court's opinion of freedom to vote conscience without coercion or intimidation and the protection Federal Law verses RNC Rules on the matter of voter rights. Binding votes verses freedom to abstain or vote conscience.
Does fraud and all the other allegations really matter if it is considered, as Gilbert pointed out, that RNC Attorney is on record (evident) that RNC believes they can follow, change, abandon and/or break their own rules to effect the outcome of the election process for the Offices of the President and Vice President of the United States. We know the media supports the positions of the RNC. The question is, does the Federal Court see it differently.
On record, The RNC prefers their own methods with out regard to existing Federal Law. I see that as thumbing the nose at the Judge. Judges don't like that and that might be what comes into play with allowing the new amended complaint. Maybe there was a wink and a nod that we were unable to see.

Yes, and this has been the main focus for Gilbert all along. Getting "guidance" from the court on the whether the delegates are lawfully unbound to vote their concience. That would mean that no candidate has any delegates until the delegates vote at the convention. Then, it gets interesting for Ron Paul.
 
ClydeCoulter,
Finally, I think we are on the same page. I spent waaay to much time arguing with lawdidly over at DP. http://www.dailypaul.com/246589/ric...r-duty-as-ron-paul-supporters#comment-2660514

lawdidly wants to use the wrecking ball - very negative

If we had a transcript of the proceedings we would have the proper feel for this.
BTW, Gilbert says that he is filing in parallel in another court as a backup. Have you any news on that?
 
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Yes, and this has been the main focus for Gilbert all along. Getting "guidance" from the court on the whether the delegates are lawfully unbound to vote their concience. That would mean that no candidate has any delegates until the delegates vote at the convention. Then, it gets interesting for Ron Paul.

Rmoney would have zero bound delegates. Presumptuous Rominee not Presumptive Nominee. At this point there is NO nominee. The fan actually hit the burrito back in April when RNC Chair Broke/Abandoned Rule 11. That is when this suit should have started. THE RNC MANIPULATES RULES TO EFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION - A kin to electioneering? They don't deny it. They proclaim it. I think the Judge is aware of all of this.
 
I read the filed comlaint, I don't see much wrong with it. I think this complaint has a good chance of being accepted. Also I think Steve does not understand, or did not really read this complaint. Weather he is really a lawyer or not he is not helping us so I would take everything he has to say with a grain of salt. I think we will win this case. :)
 
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I've been really busy the last couple days so I've probably missed a lot. But in reading the amended complaint, it looks to me like Gilbert has basically stripped this lawsuit down to a bare basic minimum, relying heavily on the arguments of the GOP's attorney Bell from Monday, instead of any specific allegation(s) of wrongdoing, in order to compel the court to answer the question and notify all delegates of their freedom to vote their conscience.

I'm not sure if I agree with the strategy, because anything could happen. But on the one hand, the amended complaint does seem to allege with specificity the fact that the party has already selected Romney as the nominee, and are expecting delegates to vote that way, when in fact Romney is not yet the nominee...

It's a really interesting gamble. I was there in court and I saw the back and forth between the judge and the GOP attorney regarding whether the GOP feels they are completely outside of the law when it comes to ANYTHING they want to do while selecting the nominee, INCLUDING BREAKING THEIR OWN RULES, AND/OR CHANGING THEM AT THE LAST MINUTE, EVEN WHEN THIS DISENFRANCHISES MEMBERS OF THE PARTY who are operating under those rules.

Perhaps since the judge already stated there would be no time to hear a whole case based on the sheer number of incidents alleged, maybe Gilbert said "Let's just take this down to the very core of the issue. Is it or is it not a Federal election, and are these Delegates free to vote their conscience or not?" Why get bogged down in all the details and all the specifics when there isn't time to prove any of that anyway before obtaining injunctive relief?

I don't know, the more I'm thinking about it the more I think he might be onto something. Instead of worrying about all the bad stuff done so far, let's just look at what the law says, and please tell us judge, does the party have to follow the law or not?

The only major problem I can foresee is that the judge wishes to steer clear of the Constitutional issue invoked here (1st Amendment Freedom to Associate) and Gilbert seems to have ignored the judge's direction to find a way to approach this that doesn't force a determination that is necessarily bound up in that question of Constitutionality. Based on that, this amended complaint may fail. I'm sure if Romney ends up NOT being the nominee, this judge doesn't want to be in the middle of a firestorm with the GOP appealing his decision and claiming now the convention is invalid because their constitutional rights were violated, and then the whole general election is held up, or who knows how the hell this would play out.

It's a really sticky situation and would've been nice if Gilbert had included at least a few states, the most horrifying examples of abuses, so that at least the judge would have some compelling reason as to why the plaintiffs need the court to intervene with an injunction.

I really can't call it either way. Reading the amended complaint, it seems like Gilbert has made this less about wrongdoing and more about just answering the question. I just don't know if the court will want to do #2 without feeling some compelling reason to, based on #1, though.

I only hope the judge was as disgusted as I was to hear that GOP attorney say the party leadership can do whatever the hell they want and don't even have to stick to their own rules. Even then, Gilbert may be asking too much by diving head-on into the Constitutional issue at hand without specifically showing some heinous violation of the law has occurred. I'm really not sure if this is good. And yet part of me thinks maybe it might work.

It might all depend on whether this judge has really really big balls, big enough balls to do the right thing.
 
I am not a lawyer...but the question that comes to my mind after reading the latest filing is what exactly are we complaining about in this "complaint"? I think that is what Steve was trying to point out. Then again...I am not a lawyer.

I read the filed comlaint, I don't see much wrong with it. I think this complaint has a good chance of being accepted. Also I think Steve does not understand, or did not really read this complaint. Weather he is really a lawyer or not he is not helping us so I would take everything he has to say with a grain of salt. I think we will win this case. :)
 
I've been really busy the last couple days so I've probably missed a lot. But in reading the amended complaint, it looks to me like Gilbert has basically stripped this lawsuit down to a bare basic minimum, relying heavily on the arguments of the GOP's attorney Bell from Monday, instead of any specific allegation(s) of wrongdoing, in order to compel the court to answer the question and notify all delegates of their freedom to vote their conscience.

I'm not sure if I agree with the strategy, because anything could happen. But on the one hand, the amended complaint does seem to allege with specificity the fact that the party has already selected Romney as the nominee, and are expecting delegates to vote that way, when in fact Romney is not yet the nominee...

It's a really interesting gamble. I was there in court and I saw the back and forth between the judge and the GOP attorney regarding whether the GOP feels they are completely outside of the law when it comes to ANYTHING they want to do while selecting the nominee, INCLUDING BREAKING THEIR OWN RULES, AND/OR CHANGING THEM AT THE LAST MINUTE, EVEN WHEN THIS DISENFRANCHISES MEMBERS OF THE PARTY who are operating under those rules.

Perhaps since the judge already stated there would be no time to hear a whole case based on the sheer number of incidents alleged, maybe Gilbert said "Let's just take this down to the very core of the issue. Is it or is it not a Federal election, and are these Delegates free to vote their conscience or not?" Why get bogged down in all the details and all the specifics when there isn't time to prove any of that anyway before obtaining injunctive relief?

I don't know, the more I'm thinking about it the more I think he might be onto something. Instead of worrying about all the bad stuff done so far, let's just look at what the law says, and please tell us judge, does the party have to follow the law or not?

The only major problem I can foresee is that the judge wishes to steer clear of the Constitutional issue invoked here (1st Amendment Freedom to Associate) and Gilbert seems to have ignored the judge's direction to find a way to approach this that doesn't force a determination that is necessarily bound up in that question of Constitutionality. Based on that, this amended complaint may fail. I'm sure if Romney ends up NOT being the nominee, this judge doesn't want to be in the middle of a firestorm with the GOP appealing his decision and claiming now the convention is invalid because their constitutional rights were violated, and then the whole general election is held up, or who knows how the hell this would play out.

It's a really sticky situation and would've been nice if Gilbert had included at least a few states, the most horrifying examples of abuses, so that at least the judge would have some compelling reason as to why the plaintiffs need the court to intervene with an injunction.

I really can't call it either way. Reading the amended complaint, it seems like Gilbert has made this less about wrongdoing and more about just answering the question. I just don't know if the court will want to do #2 without feeling some compelling reason to, based on #1, though.

I only hope the judge was as disgusted as I was to hear that GOP attorney say the party leadership can do whatever the hell they want and don't even have to stick to their own rules. Even then, Gilbert may be asking too much by diving head-on into the Constitutional issue at hand without specifically showing some heinous violation of the law has occurred. I'm really not sure if this is good. And yet part of me thinks maybe it might work.

It might all depend on whether this judge has really really big balls, big enough balls to do the right thing.

I was alluding to pretty much the same thought when I posted this.

Using the Privacy Act as an analogy, Gilbert may just be asking the court to order the RNC to inform the delegates of their rights under the Voting Rights Act. Using this approach, no wrongdoing needs to be proved. Again, using the Privacy Act analogy, no company has to be shown to be violating it to be required to notify its customers of their rights.

So long as the judge agrees that the VRA supercedes any party rules or state laws, it is merely a formality to require notification.

At least that's my read on it. It's like he's chosen the path of least resistance.

There are other examples of this, such as the Fair Housing Act, Fair Lending Act, Equal Employment Opportunity Act and others where notification of rights must be given. Gilbert's linchpin seems to be the Voting Rights Act superceding any party rules or state laws. If the judge agrees with that, requiring notification of those rights to all delegates would not be unique. Of course, this would be huge and would affect all political parties. It would re-shape the whole process going forward. It also is likely the only way to get a decision before the convention as it doesn't require proof of wrongdoing on anyone's part.

The judge may well be disgusted with the impunity of the party bosses and decide it's high time to apply the VRA to the nominating process.
 
The only major problem I can foresee is that the judge wishes to steer clear of the Constitutional issue invoked here (1st Amendment Freedom to Associate) and Gilbert seems to have ignored the judge's direction to find a way to approach this that doesn't force a determination that is necessarily bound up in that question of Constitutionality. Based on that, this amended complaint may fail. I'm sure if Romney ends up NOT being the nominee, this judge doesn't want to be in the middle of a firestorm with the GOP appealing his decision and claiming now the convention is invalid because their constitutional rights were violated, and then the whole general election is held up, or who knows how the hell this would play out.

Yes, because if he rules the delegates are unbound, they could technically nominate someone like Hillary at the DNC. By 2016, they will have had time to lock it back down, but now there are states like Texas who will probably be unbound in 2016 because they want to be a factor in the primary process.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, what about abstaining? We know if they try to do it, the chair for the delegation will probably enter their votes for them, but could this action prevent that from happening?
 
but I really liked all the other stuff about broken bones and fraud etc being in front of media as the credentials committee looks at our delegates. THEY HAVE TO BE SEATED BEFORE THEY CAN VOTE is kinda, my issue. The new complaint to those who DON'T know the facts could be read as more 'in your face' without giving the very reasonable reason why delegates felt driven to do this. As a PR and media document it is not as good as it could be, if nothing else.

I think it's better to have a favorable ruling on a narrow question than an unfavorable one on a scattershot approach. A win is a win. If Gilbert succeeds, then our side can put our own spin on it. The media will take notice then. They won't take notice of a failed lawsuit, no matter what is contained in it.

We must do both, those bastards must hang. Next time team Mitt sends a message to their goons to do x y & z, those goons might be a bit more reluctant when facing jail time. If I was working RNC and the dude I replaced was sitting in jail for 5 years in a criminal conspiracy, then if I got orders from the next NWO puppet, I would tell him to go take a hike or if I was asked to vote flipp I would phone the police.... see how that works.

Lets wait and be patient and see how this plays out otherwise we chip in for a lawyer. I agree with Sailing we carry on and gets facts and build this case, IT WILL DO NO HARM.
 
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He's also entered into the record that in 2008 the RNC recognized a delegate to vote his concience (for McCain) per the Voting Rights Act. And he wants all delegates served with notice that they are free at all times to vote their concience per the VRA (page 34(1-4)).

Hate to say it but I think he got that situation backwards. Wasn't it the Utah delegate that wanted to vote for Romney but was bound to McCain? That's why the RNC opinion was originally so funny. Romney could very well lose his "bindings" based on a Mormon delegate in 2008 bucking the system.
 
I'm not really buying this. Your join date is June 2012, so you've been a member for at least over a month and you said earlier you had been lurking prior to that.

Now, the judge didn't hear any of this until Monday so all developments from that are new. However, since you've been lurking for a while and this seems to be the only thread you have an interest in, I'd surmise that you should have known what tack Gilbert was taking and certainly could have commented on it sooner. The initial complaint was filed in mid June and has been a matter of record. There has also been a video outlining the basis for the suit since that time.

Had this suit been so flawed from the beginning, the obvious question is.....why didn't you comment on it earlier? Why the import now when it's already in motion? The only thing you are doing is much the same as Lawdiddle, only you claim more expertise.

Again...you have been a member for over a month, have been lurking for longer than that, should have been familiar with this case but only chose to comment now to say all is lost. Does that about sum it up?

LOL.. he may be the judge trying to help us from an internet cafe.

I love Ron Paul supporters absoluately love you guys, you guys question everything, I mean everything and trust no one, thats why this movement rocks. And Steve if you genuine then don't take it personally, you are being vetted and Ron Paulers are like lions, don't make sudden movements esp when they hungry.

pic_12052993267915_large.jpg
 
Did you guys take a look at the amended complaint yet.

http://electionfraudremedy.com/2nd_amended_complant_4DJIR.pdf
Hm... Interesting.
At this juncture, the most productive thing that can be done is to try to get the suit withdrawn. If it's too late for that, then it's too late to do anything else to help this case.

Then, try to get delegates who have been wronged (and can prove it) to bring their claims in their respective states (too late for the RNC) using competent counsel.

Remember: Free something isn't always better than nothing. We're beginning to see evidence of that in this case.

This is my proposal for a fix and not a tear-down of what has already occurred.

You are disgusting. You are here on this forum and you know that 2 people went to that court hearing and that they said that "The RNC lawyer indicted himself when forced to answer to the judge that he indeed breaks his own party rules." any yet you attack people on dailypaul who quote those 2 people and keep saying prove it....You are calling them liars.
Submitted by lawdida on Wed, 08/08/2012 - 18:32. Permalink
I can understand WHY DNC/Obama trolls would promote this lawsuit.So,go ahead an vote this comment up.
Anyone who doesnt agree with you is a troll and Obama supporter?

You are petty little, pathetic, lying person. Stop lying. Stop trolling (first time I used this word but since you use it it is "fair game").
Any understanding and compassion I had for you is gone and I rarely give - rep but you deserve more than just one.
- rep

 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, what about abstaining? We know if they try to do it, the chair for the delegation will probably enter their votes for them, but could this action prevent that from happening?

Yes abstaining certainly should be a right, but it's not spelled out anywhere. With the latest "Jews and Christians Together," backed by Santorum, if they gain traction and lead evangelicals to abstain, Romney has no chance.

That issue definitely should have been part of the "question".
 
So where is the lie? The following quote did not appear anywhere on this site until you posted it:

"The RNC lawyer indicted himself when forced to answer to the judge that he indeed breaks his own party rules."

If you listen to the post-ruling interview with Gilbert here he explains in detail what occurred: http://electionfraudremedy.com/audio/Richard_Gilbert_blogtalkshow_3595911.mp3

Basically the judge asked the RNC lawyer in several different ways if the RNC is bound by their own rules and the lawyer kept talking around the question until he was forced to admit that they aren't bound by their own rules at all. Gilbert said the judge was clearly taken aback.
 
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Basically the judge asked the RNC lawyer in several different ways if the RNC is bound by their own rules and the lawyer kept talking around the question until he was forced to admit that they aren't bound by their own rules at all. Gilbert said the judge was clearly taken aback.


This is one reason I was saying I would like the complaint to specify that they CHOSE how to associate and when people came in they came in with specific rules promised and their breaking those rules is impermissible rather than saying the RNC rules are just generically irrelevant and federal law is ALL that governs. That is in the argument, not the facts, so I don't think it is at this moment dispositive and can be fixed but I would focus more on the breaking rules AFTER THE CARDS ARE ALL PLAYED. My point is I want our delegates seated and the fraud exposed and trumpeted by media to put pressure on the credentials committee. If they aren't, the unbinding is much less helpful in any event.

However, I can't say Gilbert's complaint doesn't do what GILBERT wants. That I'd have to wait for the judge's ruling to find out. But if we wait for that, and it loses, it might be all over and too late to fix the complaint. The idea and possibility I saw was that if the judge was aware a more fact driven complaint existed, so he wasn't just futily giving opportunity after opportunity to amend to someone who just wasn't getting facts in (if that is how he feels) he might give another amendment. I can't read his mind, but he spent a lot of time trying to help Gilbert frame his complaint. Instead, Gilbert sort of stripped the suit to the one place he felt the judge already agreed with him, which is one strategy. I just like the other strategy better.
 
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Bound is in legally bound, right? If that's the case, then I find it more believable that the RNC lawyer had claimed that a private party is not bound by law to follow its own rules than that he admitted that he breaks the RNC rules.
So what? Even if you are right how does that further the discussion of helping the suit here, and whether we will do it? You will not be permitted to just be a distraction in this thread, so I suggest you stop.
 
so counter-productive : views from both sides - the lawsuit is already in motion, none of us here can change it regardless of what we think about it. So it comes down to "what can members of RPF do to help a favorable outcome". At this point, even though I support the suit, I don't really know of much that I can do to help other than use it as a talking to point to the sleepwalkers to explain how Romney is the not the nominee, at least not at this point. I had this conversation 2 days ago with my former boss who agrees with 85 - 90% of Paul's views but thinks Romney is already the nominee.
 
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