Look at the Casualties of War - Our Soldiers

[Jerkface]

One would expect that these morally admirable people would be posting on here from prison, as a result of their refusal to financially contribute to this unjust war. Or has the IRS softened up a little?

 

[klamath]

Spoken like a TRUE legionnaire who knows everything about obedience, and nothing about liberty.

"Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms."
-- Congressman Ron Paul

But I guess the above fellow is just another "holier than thou type"
​

And speaking of "Holier than thou types" ?

How pitifully poor are the one's you've cited at being "holier than thou" -- in comparison to those who are all about the worship of thuggery; than those who swallow whole all the tainted kool-aid poured out by the military-industrial complex. Who buy into the role's assigned, the causes championed, and a complete inversion of the principles of the American Republic, substituting instead the concepts of the Praetorian Guard.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."
-- George Washington

"Don't regard yourself as a guardian of freedom unless you respect and preserve the rights of people you disagree with..."
-- Gerard K. O'Neill

"My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military."
-- Gen. Smedley Butler

"If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army."
-- Frederick the Great
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon."
-- Napolean Bonaparte

"Military glory--that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood--that serpent's eye, that charms to destroy..."
-- Abraham Lincoln

"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
-- Gen. Omar N. Bradley

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
-- Gen. Smedley Butler

"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear."
-- Gen. Douglas MacArthur

"War is never beneficial except for those in position to profit from war expenditures."
-- Congressman Ron Paul

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-- Albert Einstein

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions."
-- Colonel James A. Donovan, USMC

"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations."
-- David Friedman

"Dress it as we may...huzza it, and sing swaggering songs about it, what is war, nine times out of ten, but murder in uniform?"
-- Douglas Jerrold


"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower​

But you see your fallacy is I don't support the war or many of the wars our country has been involved in. I hate war more than many a peacenik because I have seen it.
I Never joined the active duty military because I felt it is a pure socialist organization between wars that many servicemembers become addicted to. I was in the guard to only serve when I felt my family first and my country second was in immediate danger. Believe it or not many a guardsmen are in the guard as a counter to a full federal army and I have heard a 1 star general say this in an address to the guardsmen. A guard unit in comprised of local comunity members and are not likely to turn arms on their own comunity. I have made mistakes and I admit it and try and learn from my mistakes however when I see people using a large brush to paint those in the military as evil I tend to bristle.
We all contributed to what our country has become. If any civilian has utilized any benefits of American imperialism and the military industrial complex you bear blame. For any that think they are innocent on these forums think again. Take a look at where the internet was started. It seems it was started as alternate comunication method for the military in the event of a nuclear war.

 

[Dr.3D]

Take a look at where the internet was started. It seems it was started as alternate comunication method for the military in the event of a nuclear war.

Yes, check out ARPANET.
http://www.search.com/reference/ARPANET

 

[lemnad]

Forced?

Nothing can ever force one man to kill another. It is choice.

If it is an unjust war and he knows it to be unjust, then he is shirking his REAL duty is he does NOT resist.



It certainly might. In which case it is not the courageous that go to war, but rather the cowardly -- because they are more afraid of standing on their principles and facing the possibility/probability of going to jail than they are of following illegal orders and killing others.


Many MANY men through the years *have* had the courage to stand on their principles:
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/story.html

Who can truly say that what they endured did not require MORE courage and MORE guts than the "obedient" lemmings.

Likewise in the current "war" (so called, but not legitimately) in Iraq; Lieutenant Ehren Watada is a man with the courage of his convictions. If we had more like him (especially in higher grades) we would not be in the debacle we currently are.

As in Congress having the power of the purse, so do ultimatley the individual taxpaying American citizens. Assuming you work and are forced to pay taxes, please quit doing so out of conflict as to where your tax dollars are being spent, and take your punishment like a man. Or just stop working all together so as not to feed this system like a man of principles and ethics would. This is an infinite loop that you seemed to have removed yourself from. All the quotes in the world will not change that. Small minds point fingers at others. Great minds point at themselves.

I appreciate your free thought but it is impracticable. By feeding the system with your economic and production contributions you are as much as fault as anyone. You can make the same choices as someone in the Armed Forces to defy the current system. Please set the prescedence and voluntarily ruin your life. This should be as easy choice as you are a self proclaimed pillar of ethics and integrity.

 

[WRellim]

As in Congress having the power of the purse, so do ultimatley the individual taxpaying American citizens. Assuming you work and are forced to pay taxes, please quit doing so out of conflict as to where your tax dollars are being spent, and take your punishment like a man. Or just stop working all together so as not to feed this system like a man of principles and ethics would. This is an infinite loop that you seemed to have removed yourself from. All the quotes in the world will not change that. Small minds point fingers at others. Great minds point at themselves.

I appreciate your free thought but it is impracticable. By feeding the system with your economic and production contributions you are as much as fault as anyone. You can make the same choices as someone in the Armed Forces to defy the current system. Please set the prescedence and voluntarily ruin your life. This should be as easy choice as you are a self proclaimed pillar of ethics and integrity.

So soldiers should just obey unjust orders... but it is the fault of citizens who are merely working at their jobs or on their farms, and who have their part of their paychecks confiscated, or their profits seized... who are to blame.

They ought to know that if they want to be "free" from taking the blame for the actions of politicians and the military... they need to stop working, stop farming, stop eating or having warm houses... and instead they all, with their families ,should freeze and starve to death ...so that they can thus stop paying the "taxes" that fund the wars.

What an absolutely ABSURD attempt to shift blame and absolve responsibility.

 

[WRellim]

We all contributed to what our country has become. If any civilian has utilized any benefits of American imperialism and the military industrial complex you bear blame. For any that think they are innocent on these forums think again. Take a look at where the internet was started. It seems it was started as alternate comunication method for the military in the event of a nuclear war.

You are essentially saying: Any woman walking down a street who gets raped -- well it's obviously HER fault.


Sickening.


Because THAT IS THE EXTENT to which you are attempting to SHIFT accountability and responsibility OFF of your own shoulders (and the shoulders of the politicians and the military) and ONTO the shoulders of the general population.

You've left the path of any "reason" and fallen into a pit of absurdity, in order to avoid looking at and accepting reality.

Go read (or re-read) Gen. Smedley Butler's book: "War is a Racket"

But you see your fallacy is I don't support the war or many of the wars our country has been involved in. I hate war more than many a peacenik because I have seen it.

Let's rephrase that. A member of an inner-city gang says: "I really hate rape. I don't like it when the other members of my gang rape women. Sure I stand around and am still a member of my gang, but you can't blame me, because I don't support that. I'm just a member of THIS gang in order to protect the neighborhood from the OTHER gang in the next neighborhood over. And heck, the people of this neighborhood OWE us something for protecting them."

And of course that is offensive and and "extreme/absurd" view -- but is it really all that different from what you just said? Does the donning of a "uniform" really make it all THAT different?

You wear the uniform and you actually INVOLVE yourself IN the wars... but you claim to be passionately against it all, more passionately against it that anyone else (and use a "peacenik" as demonstrative of that).

Interesting.

Absurd, but interesting.

I Never joined the active duty military because I felt it is a pure socialist organization between wars that many servicemembers become addicted to. I was in the guard to only serve when I felt my family first and my country second was in immediate danger. Believe it or not many a guardsmen are in the guard as a counter to a full federal army and I have heard a 1 star general say this in an address to the guardsmen. A guard unit in comprised of local comunity members and are not likely to turn arms on their own comunity. I have made mistakes and I admit it and try and learn from my mistakes however when I see people using a large brush to paint those in the military as evil I tend to bristle.

I was not attempting to describe EVERYONE in the military as such. But to attempt to deny that many people DO join the military with an attitude (of verbal "machismo" anyway) to essentially "go berserk" and "kill gukes" or "screw eith the rag heads" etc -- is to close one's eyes and deny reality. Such "Gung-Ho" and "Ooh-Ra" types DEFINITELY DO exist... and they are stupid enough to make YouTubes of themselves and post them for ALL to see.

What I was stating is that *I* like many are quite frankly sick and tired of the bullshit attitude that virtually DEMANDS (witnes Avaraoth's post) that every citizen in the country needs to bow down in obesience to, and almost literally kiss the feet of anyone and everyone who wears (or wore) a military uniform... and heaven forbid if you disagree -- because you will be met with threats of personal violence.

THAT is the attitude of the legions of the Roman Empire... not the citizen militia defenders of a free republic.


If it WERE still a free republic, then there would be ZERO such displays of obesience -- any young punk who put on a uniform would NOT get some "instant respect" (and certainly would not be able to "demand" it) -- instead he would be seen for exactly what he still is, a young punk in a uniform.

The respect would have to be EARNED -- and earned through ETHICAL conduct, upstanding and unquestionable moral CHARACTER, and true readiness to simply DEFEND the nation itself (rather than being a mercenary force for corporate power) ...all of the things that the uniform PURPORTS to represent, and which it MAY at one time have represented to a more significant degree.

And doubtless, there are MANY who wear the military uniforms and WHO STILL DO validly and honorably represent those values.

But alas, that is NOT what people see "in general" currently. Far more often these days, we see individuals who display the "Avaroth" attitude that is little more than a "thug" or an armed hoodlum in camo, trotting around as if everyone owes them the world and otherwise should simply "STFU" !



It is a sad reality that it has passed that point... but it is reality nonetheless.

 

[aravoth]

I was not attempting to describe EVERYONE in the military as such. But to attempt to deny that many people DO join the military with an attitude (of verbal "machismo" anyway) to essentially "go berserk" and "kill gukes" or "screw eith the rag heads" etc -- is to close one's eyes and deny reality. Such "Gung-Ho" and "Ooh-Ra" types DEFINITELY DO exist... and they are stupid enough to make YouTubes of themselves and post them for ALL to see.

What I was stating is that *I* like many are quite frankly sick and tired of the bullshit attitude that virtually DEMANDS (witnes Avaraoth's post) that every citizen in the country needs to bow down in obesience to, and almost literally kiss the feet of anyone and everyone who wears (or wore) a military uniform... and heaven forbid if you disagree -- because you will be met with threats of personal violence.

THAT is the attitude of the legions of the Roman Empire... not the citizen militia defenders of a free republic.


If it WERE still a free republic, then there would be ZERO such displays of obesience -- any young punk who put on a uniform would NOT get some "instant respect" (and certainly would not be able to "demand" it) -- instead he would be seen for exactly what he still is, a young punk in a uniform.

The respect would have to be EARNED -- and earned through ETHICAL conduct, upstanding and unquestionable moral CHARACTER, and true readiness to simply DEFEND the nation itself (rather than being a mercenary force for corporate power) ...all of the things that the uniform PURPORTS to represent, and which it MAY at one time have represented to a more significant degree.

And doubtless, there are MANY who wear the military uniforms and WHO STILL DO validly and honorably represent those values.

But alas, that is NOT what people see "in general" currently. Far more often these days, we see individuals who display the "Avaroth" attitude that is little more than a "thug" or an armed hoodlum in camo, trotting around as if everyone owes them the world and otherwise should simply "STFU" !



It is a sad reality that it has passed that point... but it is reality nonetheless.

You know nothing about me. You make stupid comments and then lash out when someone calls you an asshole for it. The Military is not an extension of "corprate power". And I don't really give a shit if you have a problem with my attitude.

How much money did you make because of this war? How many business ventures where made possible because of it? How many times did you bet against the dollar?

Only got pissed off when you realized your pocketbook was at stake didn't you? Yeah, now you're fired up. Might not be able to afford a 70 inch Plasma TV now? Boo fucking hoo.

 

[lemnad]

So soldiers should just obey unjust orders... but it is the fault of citizens who are merely working at their jobs or on their farms, and who have their part of their paychecks confiscated, or their profits seized... who are to blame.

They ought to know that if they want to be "free" from taking the blame for the actions of politicians and the military... they need to stop working, stop farming, stop eating or having warm houses... and instead they all, with their families ,should freeze and starve to death ...so that they can thus stop paying the "taxes" that fund the wars.

What an absolutely ABSURD attempt to shift blame and absolve responsibility.

Yes from the perspective you decribe it is no different than someone in uniform to go AWOL in defiance of the war, go through a court marshal, do some Federal Prison time and then recieve a dishonorable disharge. There is hope after that for future employment but for all intents and purposes you life is in a shambles, and you will be eeking out an existence much like the farmers you posted above. And you can not own a firearm.

So to be "free" from taking blame for the actions of politicians and the general public who willingly sent them to an unjust, illegall war under false pretenses they need to stop working, stop eating or having warm houses... and instead they all, with their families ,should freeze and starve to death ...so that they can thus stop contributing to the war effort and paying taxes (you still have to pay taxes in the military) that fund the wars.

Signing up for what you think is an admirable cause and then having the rug pulled out from under you leaves a lot of military folks in a precarious situation. Those of us that were in and offered at least some level of dissent at least produced a tangible effect. Those that sit on the sidelines and claim there is "nothing I can do but blame others for our current situation" are just wasting oxygen.


It's not an attempt to shift or rid responsibility and blame, but to share it. You choose to blame the tip of the sword and ignore the blade and handle. Maybe you are not the super intellectual you think you are because it sounds like you may just have a beef with the military.

 

[Theocrat]

Coinciding With Vance

Forced?

Nothing can ever force one man to kill another. It is choice.

If it is an unjust war and he knows it to be unjust, then he is shirking his REAL duty is he does NOT resist.



It certainly might. In which case it is not the courageous that go to war, but rather the cowardly -- because they are more afraid of standing on their principles and facing the possibility/probability of going to jail than they are of following illegal orders and killing others.


Many MANY men through the years *have* had the courage to stand on their principles:
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/story.html

Who can truly say that what they endured did not require MORE courage and MORE guts than the "obedient" lemmings.

Likewise in the current "war" (so called, but not legitimately) in Iraq; Lieutenant Ehren Watada is a man with the courage of his convictions. If we had more like him (especially in higher grades) we would not be in the debacle we currently are.

You remind me of a favorite Lew Rockwell columnist of mine, Laurence M. Vance. He gives some interesting perspectives on war, similar to those you've posted here in this thread.

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

You wear the uniform and you actually INVOLVE yourself IN the wars... but you claim to be passionately against it all, more passionately against it that anyone else (and use a "peacenik" as demonstrative of that).

Interesting.

Absurd, but interesting.




It is a sad reality that it has passed that point... but it is reality nonetheless.

You've been owned, man. Crushed by your own logic. Give it up