Look at the Casualties of War - Our Soldiers

[WRellim]

This is the second time I have had somebody on these forums ask me that question.
I tend to believe there has been a lot of effort put into making those events look like an urban myth.

I assure you, not only myself, but many others were called "baby killer" and spit upon. If not right after returning from Vietnam, a few years later.

I remember waiting in a line at the unemployment compensation office and the person behind me was talking with me and we were pretty much shooting the crap when I mentioned I had just come home from Vietnam. He said, "so you are one of those baby killers?" The spitting incident was at a different time. At a party with some 'friends'.

If you have doubts these things actually happened to the Vietnam veterans, then perhaps you should check out these web pages.
http://www.vva951.org/baby-killers.html
http://stliraqwarvets.wordpress.com/2007/03/31/learning-more-from-vietnam-veterans/
http://www.vietnow.com/pagesbooks/warandpieces.htm
http://www.vva.org/veteran/1206/letters.html

Edit: BTW, I don't really want to think or talk about those events anymore, and I seldom do.

Ah, but so it didn't happen when you "got off the plane" -- there weren't a whole bunch of "anti-war protesters" who shouted "baby-killer" and spat bucket loads on the service men exiting the planes -- THAT is the "urban myth" that is promoted as the "history." And I think a very LARGE amount of effort has been put into exaggerating those incidents as a way of discrediting any anti-war movements (which often have many soldiers in them -- especially true of Vietnam, but also equally true of the current conflict in Iraq.)

And apparently even your specific situation does NOT invalidate THAT "exaggerated" portrayal as being myth; if you can remember them as two distinct, separate, isolated and specific events that were at different times and places, then apparently it also didn't happen on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time (which is also the exaggerated "myth" aspect -- the exaggeration that it happened not only IMMEDIATELY upon return, as the vets were exiting the plane -- but also CONTINUOUSLY for years afterwards, with virtually everyone they met, anywhere).


As I said, I wasn't doubting the veracity of your statement -- nor was I denying that it EVER happened (one cannot prove a negative anyway) -- it just wasn't clear from the way you phrased it if you were speaking of specific actual events you personally experienced or were using it in a figurative sense to refer to the general way you were treated.


As to the incidents you mention versus the testimony of the vets I know -- perhaps (like many other things) it depends on which part of the country one lives in. I am in the Great Lakes (midwest) area, and all of the vets I know are from small towns around here (Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota & Wisconsin) -- and people around here just tend not to DO those kinds of things (spitting, sure, but at the ground, not AT other people, even if you don't like them).

They claim the "abuse" they got once they came home was mainly at the mouths of WWII era "old farts" who looked down on them mainly because we lost Vietnam, and they were mainly accused of being "druggies" instead of fighting "properly" (which if you knew these guys, was ridiculous). In general, if and when people found out they were Vietnam veterans, the most common response was a silence and people not knowing what to say -- much like at a funeral. (And sadly I think that "silence" could be taken either as sympathy or disdain, but you would probably never know which if you didn't ask or want to know -- so sympathy might be misconstrued as disdain).

Personally, I would neither praise nor condemn someone who was drafted (or stop-lossed) or indeed even "volunteered" and was "duped" to fight in an unjust war (have there ever actually been many "just" wars? And "just" at what level or in whose opinion?)

Rather I think that, as people do throughout their lives, they probably each did their best to do whatever was necessary to survive; and to the extent that they understood matters, most men probably strove to do what they considered "right" at the time (which is about the best that you can really expect).


To me the most poignant and telling statement on individual soldiers in virtually ANY war is contained (of all places) in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (although perhaps NOT so strangely, as Tolkien was himself in the trenches of WWI and lost several close friends there) -- the statement is of the character Samwise on seeing a dead "enemy" soldier:

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead man's face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace -- all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien, (Lord of The Rings: The Two Towers; Book IV, Ch. 4 "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit") -- emphasis added
​

I would think the same could be said of most men (whether "volunteers" or draftees) -- "what lies or threats" were used on them -- and wouldn't most SANE men "really rather have stayed there [home] in peace". Most of the time it seems that the military prefers YOUNG men because quite frankly once men are older, they beome much more independent minded, aren't as easily mislead, nor as easy to threaten or order around. If you drafted a 35 year old man and in boot camp had a 24 year old sergeant (or worse, a 24 year old Lt.) order the man to clean the floor with a tooth brush... well one doubts it would have the same result as with an 18 or 19 year old.

 

[Elegy]

While I agree in a *philosophical* sense -- we also need to realize that the "world" a soldier lives in while on duty has little or nothing to do with the world YOU and I live in on a daily basis.

When they are on a tour -- especially in a war zone -- they are much more about being loyal to the buddies in their unit than they are about the "grand scheme of things." Surviving the immediate situation is the most important thing, indeed virtually the ONLY important thing, and the military itself reinforces that aspect as much as possible (HONOR is not so much just an "obey the President" thing -- but rather is co-mingled and intentionally intermixed with the "don't betray your buds" aspect -- and the lines are blurred on purpose).

I think for most soldiers it is a matter of "suspended judgment" -- in order to keep their focus on the task at hand, they don't (indeed almost cannot) give much room for the thoughts about the "justness" of their combined actions.

That is why it mainly happens when they RETURN to the states on rotation -- the "down time" on leave, especially if they have gotten back into the "normal life" of a civilian stateside is what causes the dramatic shift; and hence the increased number who begin to question it more HERE than do over there. (There are exceptions of course, depending on one's job duties there may be plenty of time to think... and a conscious effort has to be taken to either "shut it off" or somehow "justify" it via mental gyrations and gymnastics.)

As to the civilian equivalent... how many people TRULY think about the impact of their jobs, or how the company they work for operates -- whether it is in a truly "ethical" manner or not? Most people are more closely focused on the task at hand -- get this project or that one done -- on cutting costs (and getting a raise or promotion) -- on improving sales or getting more clients.

Seldom do people stop and think of the "overall ethical" parts of it -- by trying to SELL more electronics to this customer, am I helping to put him deeper in credit card debt? By cutting the "costs" with the design change on this lawnmower, am I helping create a piece of "junk" solely in order to help the company make a few more dollars (or more likely cents) on each one sold? Are we "milking" a customer by giving him junk instead of the "solid" brand he thinks he is buying?

Or how about the banker or real estate agent -- were they REALLY "helping" people fulfill the American "dream" of owning their own home? Or were they setting people up for something they really couldn't afford, and at a price that the home really wasn't worth?


So quite frankly while it is easy to SAY (even in the civilian world) that "If your boss told you to do something that you knew was wrong and simply used the "I was ordered to do it" response it wouldn't fly." -- it is much harder to DO -- because the reality is a bit different, and a hundred little justifications (my family needs the money -- I wouldn't get that raise/promotion, or I'd lose my job ...then I'd lose my car, and my house! -- etc) all enter into it as well.

The sad truth is that for MOST people, the "I was ordered to do it" justification actually DOES "fly" and flies quite nicely.

Sad, but true.

Well said, you sound like somebody that has been there or at least one of the few people with common sense that has commented.

 

[Conza88]

If your boss told you to do something that you knew was wrong and simply used the "I was ordered to do it" response it wouldn't fly.

If a soldier does not agree with what he or she is doing then they need to get out. The consequences could be severe but just because you are threatened with death or jail should not matter IF you know it is wrong and need to GET OUT.

I don't think the soldiers are to blame but I will say that IF I was in something that I felt was morally wrong I would NOT KEEP DOING IT just because I was ordered to. You need to stand up for what is right or get out any way you possibly can.

I would not look down on someone for leaving the war versus one who is staying in and still fighting for something they do NOT believe in.

I support soldiers and hope we can educate them so they can STAND UP against this illegal war. No more soldiers means no more war. Stand up against it and what can they do then? the draft? that once again is a "forced" effort that is still up to the person whether they follow or not.

QFT.!!!
Just specifically @ the bold above in the quote. = Spot on... it didn't fly at Nuremberg, so why should it fly in this war? Hypocrisy's a bitch.
The victorious tend to write the history books.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I did not come to bring peace . . .

Forced?

Nothing can ever force one man to kill another. It is choice.

If it is an unjust war and he knows it to be unjust, then he is shirking his REAL duty is he does NOT resist.



It certainly might. In which case it is not the courageous that go to war, but rather the cowardly -- because they are more afraid of standing on their principles and facing the possibility/probability of going to jail than they are of following illegal orders and killing others.


Many MANY men through the years *have* had the courage to stand on their principles:
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/story.html

Who can truly say that what they endured did not require MORE courage and MORE guts than the "obedient" lemmings.

Likewise in the current "war" (so called, but not legitimately) in Iraq; Lieutenant Ehren Watada is a man with the courage of his convictions. If we had more like him (especially in higher grades) we would not be in the debacle we currently are.

Before being shipped to the land of freedom to sit at a volitile dinner table, a lot of Americans lived peacefully in a caste system in Western Africa as seperated masters and slaves. Some Americans even today wish to celebrate this futile system as a culture to be proud.
America is not a peaceful nation and wasn't designed to be. To the contrary, we should expect a volitile dinner table when the master is bound and the slave is freed to sit together. In fact, those who sue for peace should be distrusted.
The necessary evil of tyranny fails to differentiate between violence and volitility. Violence itself is just UnAmerican as is hatefulness. As far as any police officer knows though, any behavior outside of peace should not be tolerated. Yet, in the name of peace is how we are going about suing ourselves to living once again in a primitive caste system of master and slave. As we go volatile into a courtroom as citizens, we come out as winning master clients or losing slave ones. Either way, we all lose out as clients eventually.

 

[klamath]

While I agree in a *philosophical* sense -- we also need to realize that the "world" a soldier lives in while on duty has little or nothing to do with the world YOU and I live in on a daily basis.

When they are on a tour -- especially in a war zone -- they are much more about being loyal to the buddies in their unit than they are about the "grand scheme of things." Surviving the immediate situation is the most important thing, indeed virtually the ONLY important thing, and the military itself reinforces that aspect as much as possible (HONOR is not so much just an "obey the President" thing -- but rather is co-mingled and intentionally intermixed with the "don't betray your buds" aspect -- and the lines are blurred on purpose).

I think for most soldiers it is a matter of "suspended judgment" -- in order to keep their focus on the task at hand, they don't (indeed almost cannot) give much room for the thoughts about the "justness" of their combined actions.

That is why it mainly happens when they RETURN to the states on rotation -- the "down time" on leave, especially if they have gotten back into the "normal life" of a civilian stateside is what causes the dramatic shift; and hence the increased number who begin to question it more HERE than do over there. (There are exceptions of course, depending on one's job duties there may be plenty of time to think... and a conscious effort has to be taken to either "shut it off" or somehow "justify" it via mental gyrations and gymnastics.)

As to the civilian equivalent... how many people TRULY think about the impact of their jobs, or how the company they work for operates -- whether it is in a truly "ethical" manner or not? Most people are more closely focused on the task at hand -- get this project or that one done -- on cutting costs (and getting a raise or promotion) -- on improving sales or getting more clients.

Seldom do people stop and think of the "overall ethical" parts of it -- by trying to SELL more electronics to this customer, am I helping to put him deeper in credit card debt? By cutting the "costs" with the design change on this lawnmower, am I helping create a piece of "junk" solely in order to help the company make a few more dollars (or more likely cents) on each one sold? Are we "milking" a customer by giving him junk instead of the "solid" brand he thinks he is buying?

Or how about the banker or real estate agent -- were they REALLY "helping" people fulfill the American "dream" of owning their own home? Or were they setting people up for something they really couldn't afford, and at a price that the home really wasn't worth?


So quite frankly while it is easy to SAY (even in the civilian world) that "If your boss told you to do something that you knew was wrong and simply used the "I was ordered to do it" response it wouldn't fly." -- it is much harder to DO -- because the reality is a bit different, and a hundred little justifications (my family needs the money -- I wouldn't get that raise/promotion, or I'd lose my job ...then I'd lose my car, and my house! -- etc) all enter into it as well.

The sad truth is that for MOST people, the "I was ordered to do it" justification actually DOES "fly" and flies quite nicely.

Sad, but true.

Based on the statements of this poster below I withdraw my statement "well said"

 

[WRellim]

Well said, you sound like somebody that has been there or at least one of the few people with common sense that has commented.

Haven't been active duty military in a war zone, but I know and have had pretty deep conversations with several who have, so I get my perspective on that second hand. (Still better than hearsay.)


But I have (unfortunately) been put in "tough spots" ethically in business on several occasions... and unlike many I "see" the situation from an ethical point of view -- its something I really have no ability NOT to do -- and it has often caused me to "bow out" or refuse to do certain things because I consider them ethically wrong.

I've lost jobs and backed out of lucrative business ventures because of it. Unlikely that I'd be a Warren Buffet, but from my experience, no one gets THAT rich that fast AND retains 100% of their ethics... they are either fudging the lines, staying "intentionally ignorant," or doing some ethical justification-gyrations in there somewhere.

I've been told I'm too much of a "Good Will Hunting" and think things through TOO damn far -- I gotta admit his line about NOT working for the NSA sounds like something I'd come up with (and is one of my favorite's... though it must have been a pure *biotch* for Damon to do in a single take):

Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll take a shot.

Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. Maybe I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never met, never had no problem with, get killed.

Now the politicians are sayin', "Oh, send in the Marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a shit. It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number got called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some kid from Southie takin' shrapnel in the ass. And he comes back to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks.

Meanwhile, he realizes the only reason he was over there in the first place was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And, of course, the oil companies used the skirmish over there to scare up domestic oil prices. A cute little ancillary benefit for them, but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, of course, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and fuckin' play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. So now my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the fuckin' job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin', 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat, the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State.

So what did I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better.

I figure fuck it, while I'm at it why not just shoot my buddy, take his job, give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president.
​

I just realized how nostalgic that sounds... two fifty a gallon? Shit that'd be cheap these days!



P.S. Notice how accurately he characterizes GWBush there (pulling a tour in the National Guard, etc) -- then you realize that move was made in 1996 and shown in theaters in 1997! Pretty spot-on though, I'd say.

 

[aravoth]

Forced?

Nothing can ever force one man to kill another. It is choice.

If it is an unjust war and he knows it to be unjust, then he is shirking his REAL duty is he does NOT resist.



It certainly might. In which case it is not the courageous that go to war, but rather the cowardly -- because they are more afraid of standing on their principles and facing the possibility/probability of going to jail than they are of following illegal orders and killing others.


Many MANY men through the years *have* had the courage to stand on their principles:
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/story.html

Who can truly say that what they endured did not require MORE courage and MORE guts than the "obedient" lemmings.

Likewise in the current "war" (so called, but not legitimately) in Iraq; Lieutenant Ehren Watada is a man with the courage of his convictions. If we had more like him (especially in higher grades) we would not be in the debacle we currently are.

How about this, take your weapon out with on a nice sunny day, Then I'll start shooting at you from a distance. You can then make your choice, wether to fire back and survive to see your family again, or you can sit there and help me tighten my shot-group on your face.

That is what Soldiers go through, your bullshit political, philosophical nonsense is something that does not apply in those situations. Matter of fact it doesn't even exist when bullets are whizzing over your head, or through it. All there is, is you and the guy shooting at you, you make the choice to live or die. Not to"go fight an unjust war".

I'd love to see what you would do in this situation.

This forum has some of the most intelligent people I have ever met in my life. But I gotta say, when it comes to real-world situations some of you guys just can't grasp such a simple concept as survival. Thats what war is to the guy on the ground. Your out on patrol, roaming the streets, smiling to the kids out there, being respectful to the adults, doing what your officers, superiors, president, and voters by an act of electing a pro-war candidate, have asked you to do. You joined to serve your country, to protect your country and constitution, and you start to wonder why the hell you're in Iraq, you're angry that you donated as much as you could to the Ron Paul Campaign, and the American people where too stupid to listen to him. You're going home in 3 months, can't wait to see your wife and daughter, she was born when you got deployed. Can't wait to meet her.......Shots ring out, at first you can't tell which direction they're coming from, instinctively you drop to a knee, get behind cover, aim your rifle, hope that someone in your squad has a better idea than you where that shot came from. You look to your left, your buddy is looking the opposite direction you are, then another shot, this time it hits your friend, he hits the ground, screaming in pain. Just as your squad leader spots the assailant, explosions ring out all around you, killing 3 in your squad, and several more civilians. Now the gun fire is everywhere, they're trying to clean up what the IED's didn't take care of......it's decision time......you have 1 nanosecond to decide wether or not you are going to kill someone to survive. During that nano second, before the thought even finished, you have already fired shots, killed one person, and you are targeting the other. Once everything is over with, you realize that the instinct to survive is more powerful than any amount of principled, political, or philosophical alignment. The human mind simply overrides morality.

All of that happens in less than 20 seconds. Does that sound like the time to make a profound political statement? Are the Bad guys gonna play nice now that you've had this new revelation? They just killed 15 of their own people trying to get to you. Until you've been in that situation, it'd probably be best that you don't say stupid shit about things you have no concept of. Thats what soldiers go through.

You on the other hand. You'll just sit in your heated home, watch political crap on your cable TV, while you surf the internet, go to the movies, get a hot shower, drive your own car, go out to the bar, eat wherever you want, whenever you want, have a poker night, argue with friends about politics. You probably go and buy a coffee, go to your job, in a nice building with a not so comfy chair. Completely safe from everything but an earthquake. And you'll say that soldiers are cowards becuase they're out dodging bullets. No one put them in that situation right? They chose it?

You fuckin chose it for them. Every single one of you that ever thought it would be a good idea to join the libertarian party and vote for someone who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected, or having his voice heard by anyone other than the John Birch Society. All of you that didn't vote at all, all of us that allowed the Government to slowly take more and more power. Everyone that never held their Senator or Congressman accountable for what they do. Everyone that waited until now, when our Republic is on the brink of ruin, to finally go out and try to tell people to "stop", to realize whats happening.

All of that complacency led us here, to this war, to this financial mess. And all of us, whether by action, or inaction, are a part of it, and all of us are responsible for it.

I realize that everyone is happy, they have a cell phone that can wash dishes for Christs sake, so projecting your hatred of the war, on those who fight it is perfectly fine. We wouldn't want people to feel like they bare some responsibility for the people they choose to run the country, do we?

 

[WRellim]

How about this, take your weapon out with on a nice sunny day, Then I'll start shooting at you from a distance. You can then make your choice, wether to fire back and survive to see your family again, or you can sit there and help me tighten my shot-group on your face.

That is what Soldiers go through, your bullshit political, philosophical nonsense is something that does not apply in those situations. Matter of fact it doesn't even exist when bullets are whizzing over your head, or through it. All there is, is you and the guy shooting at you, you make the choice to live or die. Not to"go fight an unjust war".

I'd love to see what you would do in this situation.

This forum has some of the most intelligent people I have ever met in my life. But I gotta say, when it comes to real-world situations some of you guys just can't grasp such a simple concept as survival. Thats what war is to the guy on the ground. Your out on patrol, roaming the streets, smiling to the kids out there, being respectful to the adults, doing what your officers, superiors, president, and voters by an act of electing a pro-war candidate, have asked you to do. You joined to serve your country, to protect your country and constitution, and you start to wonder why the hell you're in Iraq, you're angry that you donated as much as you could to the Ron Paul Campaign, and the American people where too stupid to listen to him. You're going home in 3 months, can't wait to see your wife and daughter, she was born when you got deployed. Can't wait to meet her.......Shots ring out, at first you can't tell which direction they're coming from, instinctively you drop to a knee, get behind cover, aim your rifle, hope that someone in your squad has a better idea than you where that shot came from. You look to your left, your buddy is looking the opposite direction you are, then another shot, this time it hits your friend, he hits the ground, screaming in pain. Just as your squad leader spots the assailant, explosions ring out all around you, killing 3 in your squad, and several more civilians. Now the gun fire is everywhere, they're trying to clean up what the IED's didn't take care of......it's decision time......you have 1 nanosecond to decide wether or not you are going to kill someone to survive. During that nano second, before the thought even finished, you have already fired shots, killed one person, and you are targeting the other. Once everything is over with, you realize that the instinct to survive is more powerful than any amount of principled, political, or philosophical alignment. The human mind simply overrides morality.

All of that happens in less than 20 seconds. Does that sound like the time to make a profound political statement? Are the Bad guys gonna play nice now that you've had this new revelation? They just killed 15 of their own people trying to get to you. Until you've been in that situation, it'd probably be best that you don't say stupid shit about things you have no concept of. Thats what soldiers go through.

You on the other hand. You'll just sit in your heated home, watch political crap on your cable TV, while you surf the internet, go to the movies, get a hot shower, drive your own car, go out to the bar, eat wherever you want, whenever you want, have a poker night, argue with friends about politics. You probably go and buy a coffee, go to your job, in a nice building with a not so comfy chair. Completely safe from everything but an earthquake. And you'll say that soldiers are cowards becuase they're out dodging bullets. No one put them in that situation right? They chose it?

You fuckin chose it for them. Every single one of you that ever thought it would be a good idea to join the libertarian party and vote for someone who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected, or having his voice heard by anyone other than the John Birch Society. All of you that didn't vote at all, all of us that allowed the Government to slowly take more and more power. Everyone that never held their Senator or Congressman accountable for what they do. Everyone that waited until now, when our Republic is on the brink of ruin, to finally go out and try to tell people to "stop", to realize whats happening.

All of that complacency led us here, to this war, to this financial mess. And all of us, whether by action, or inaction, are a part of it, and all of us are responsible for it.

I realize that everyone is happy, they have a cell phone that can wash dishes for Christs sake, so projecting your hatred of the war, on those who fight it is perfectly fine. We wouldn't want people to feel like they bare some responsibility for the people they choose to run the country, do we?

Price you pay for being a Gung-Ho Ooh-Ra young idiot who wanted to trot around in his fancy uniform to impress all the girls, feeling all glorious and pompous telling all your home boyz and the civvies round what a great job you was gonna be doing servin your country, protectin their m' f'in asses... oh yeah, you was one tuff mutha wasn't you. Then the time comes for you to go do dat shit you been braggin bout, and you wuz all like, ya man, gonna kill me sum rag-heads....ooh yah you and yur buds was the tuffist m'f'ers eva lived. All of a sudden shit's flying, people dying, yur fucked...likley you shat your pants when reality smacked you upside the face, and you realized you f'd up ur life BIG TIME.

But y'all can deal with that. No, you gotta come back with a whole s load full of attitude, being in everyone's face, blaming everyone ELSE (except yourself) for the f'd up situation of your life. You bought into a bunch of bull and you can't get your head around that, so instead you wanna wrap it around everyone else's.

BULL.

Suck it up little big man.

You wanted to play G.I.Joe... you got your wish.


Lot of folks DID work against the idiots wanting this kind of a sh*tty world... probably since you were playing cowboys and indians... sad fact is that at least one of the idiots and BS artists they had to work against was probably YOU with all of your pompous hormone filled machismo military BS attitude and all.

PERSONAL responsibility for YOUR life starts with YOU. Deal with it.

(And best you read the REST of the thread for you start being an idiot AGAIN p*ssn people off.)


P.S. You start shooting at people around my neck of the woods... you probably won't need to think about much of anything before too long, people will take care of you fast enough. Then get out the backhoe, dig a little ditch and no one seen hide nor hair of you.

 

[Elegy]

It is when part of one's enlistment/commission you promise an oath re: the UCMJ which states that a soldier is obligated to follow only lawful orders. Killing people in Iraq that did nothing to the United States under no authority of a legally declared war and an entire occupation based upon proven unlawful lies makes the order to continue killing men women and children in Iraq an unlawful order.

Damn you're a loser, you think we're out here intentionally targeting and killing innocent men, women and children? I, even as an NCO, would not follow such an order nor would I ask it of any subordinate. You can rest assured though, if there is somebody that decides he wants to engage and attempt to take my life or any of my comrades lives, I will take his/her life without a second thought. Nobody out here is thinking about politics, I'm trying to survive to see my wife and child again, period.

 

[Cinderella]

It is when part of one's enlistment/commission you promise an oath re: the UCMJ which states that a soldier is obligated to follow only lawful orders. Killing people in Iraq that did nothing to the United States under no authority of a legally declared war and an entire occupation based upon proven unlawful lies makes the order to continue killing men women and children in Iraq an unlawful order.

can we start a thread where we post the million plus iraqi people who have died?? not only young men have died...women children and babies have died...my brother is a soldier so i always worry about him...but he chose to go that route...he chose to wear the uniform and he chooses to follow orders...the innocent iraqis who have been deemed terrorists did not chose that destiny....i feel for the people of iraqi...not the soldiers....they are quite capable of researching what they are fighting for and then they can make wise desicions...have they done that? no....seems like everyone with brown skin is called a terrorist....i cant tell u how many times i hear soldiers make fun of the iraqis and say that they all deserve the treatment they have recieved...

 

[OptionsTrader]

Damn you're a loser

It is nice to know that this great education system of ours still produces men and women of such debating prowess that name calling fallacies are not relied upon.

 

[Elegy]

I apologize for the insult, I tend to get worked up about this.

 

[aravoth]

Price you pay for being a Gung-Ho Ooh-Ra young idiot who wanted to trot around in his fancy uniform to impress all the girls, feeling all glorious and pompous telling all your home boyz and the civvies round what a great job you was gonna be doing servin your country, protectin their m' f'in asses... oh yeah, you was one tuff mutha wasn't you. Then the time comes for you to go do dat shit you been braggin bout, and you wuz all like, ya man, gonna kill me sum rag-heads....ooh yah you and yur buds was the tuffist m'f'ers eva lived. All of a sudden shit's flying, people dying, yur fucked...likley you shat your pants when reality smacked you upside the face, and you realized you f'd up ur life BIG TIME.

But y'all can deal with that. No, you gotta come back with a whole s load full of attitude, being in everyone's face, blaming everyone ELSE (except yourself) for the f'd up situation of your life. You bought into a bunch of bull and you can't get your head around that, so instead you wanna wrap it around everyone else's.

BULL.

Suck it up little big man.

You wanted to play G.I.Joe... you got your wish.


Lot of folks DID work against the idiots wanting this kind of a sh*tty world... probably since you were playing cowboys and indians... sad fact is that at least one of the idiots and BS artists they had to work against was probably YOU with all of your pompous hormone filled machismo military BS attitude and all.

PERSONAL responsibility for YOUR life starts with YOU. Deal with it.

(And best you read the REST of the thread for you start being an idiot AGAIN p*ssn people off.)


P.S. You start shooting at people around my neck of the woods... you probably won't need to think about much of anything before too long, people will take care of you fast enough. Then get out the backhoe, dig a little ditch and no one seen hide nor hair of you.

You think that's funny? No shit I volunteered, it was my choice, and I knew exactly what I was signing up for. Does it fucking look like I'm asking for a fucking handout? I wasn't "braggin' bout" anything, you fucking simpleton. And no, I didn't "f'd up big time", But you will, if you spout that shit off to the wrong person. I wasn't bitching, just pointing out a point of veiw. You have every right to bitch and moan like a fucking three year old about shit you know nothing about, and yet a person that has been in these situations is all of the sudden a machismo fucking lunatic? You think it was about playing GI fucking Joe? My whole family is military, tough guy. I didn't join to kill me some arabs. I joined to serve becuase I liked my country and was willing to put my neck out for it. I guess to some shitheaded dumbfuck like you actions such as that are meaningless and trivial. It's something only the people of the most simplistic minds engage in.

Being a condescending asshole, and speaking ebonics to a person like me is nice though, I like to see what kind of enviornments the worst of us had to grow up in. No wonder you're fucked up.

But I have (unfortunately) been put in "tough spots" ethically in business on several occasions... and unlike many I "see" the situation from an ethical point of view -- its something I really have no ability NOT to do -- and it has often caused me to "bow out" or refuse to do certain things because I consider them ethically wrong.

I've lost jobs and backed out of lucrative business ventures because of it. Unlikely that I'd be a Warren Buffet, but from my experience, no one gets THAT rich that fast AND retains 100% of their ethics... they are either fudging the lines, staying "intentionally ignorant," or doing some ethical justification-gyrations in there somewhere.

Wow, must be soooo hard for you. I can't begin to think of the amount of sacrifices you have had to make.

Threaten me, makes me feel good, especially coming from an internet dipshit like you. Fucking back hoe? People gonna take care of me fast enough? I'm quaking in my fucking boots. Hopefully it's not a ethically challenging business descision, wouldn't want you to have a moral crisis.

Did I blame everyone but myself? Or did I blame everyone. You make it this far in life and still haven't learned how to use context clues in a standard sentence?

I've been all over the world, literally. I've seen the best and the worst. I've even been to a few circuses, a couple carnivals, and a crocidile show. It is becuase of this that I can say, without any doubt in my mind whatsoever, that you are, hands down, the dumbest mother fucker I have ever seen.

Have a nice day. I hope you get run over my a train.

 

[Nirvikalpa]

Wow. What was supposed to be a respectful thread turned out to be one of the most disrespectful on this forum. Unbelievable.

I'm pretty speechless.

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

Wow. What was supposed to be a respectful thread turned out to be one of the most disrespectful on this forum. Unbelievable.

I'm pretty speechless.

its like how you can't start a thread about Israel or WW2 without the Holocaust deniers showing up.


What all the "nay-sayers" on these threads don't realize is that these soldiers have more balls than they EVER will

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

How about this, take your weapon out with on a nice sunny day, Then I'll start shooting at you from a distance. You can then make your choice, wether to fire back and survive to see your family again, or you can sit there and help me tighten my shot-group on your face.

That is what Soldiers go through, your bullshit political, philosophical nonsense is something that does not apply in those situations. Matter of fact it doesn't even exist when bullets are whizzing over your head, or through it. All there is, is you and the guy shooting at you, you make the choice to live or die. Not to"go fight an unjust war".

I'd love to see what you would do in this situation.

This forum has some of the most intelligent people I have ever met in my life. But I gotta say, when it comes to real-world situations some of you guys just can't grasp such a simple concept as survival. Thats what war is to the guy on the ground. Your out on patrol, roaming the streets, smiling to the kids out there, being respectful to the adults, doing what your officers, superiors, president, and voters by an act of electing a pro-war candidate, have asked you to do. You joined to serve your country, to protect your country and constitution, and you start to wonder why the hell you're in Iraq, you're angry that you donated as much as you could to the Ron Paul Campaign, and the American people where too stupid to listen to him. You're going home in 3 months, can't wait to see your wife and daughter, she was born when you got deployed. Can't wait to meet her.......Shots ring out, at first you can't tell which direction they're coming from, instinctively you drop to a knee, get behind cover, aim your rifle, hope that someone in your squad has a better idea than you where that shot came from. You look to your left, your buddy is looking the opposite direction you are, then another shot, this time it hits your friend, he hits the ground, screaming in pain. Just as your squad leader spots the assailant, explosions ring out all around you, killing 3 in your squad, and several more civilians. Now the gun fire is everywhere, they're trying to clean up what the IED's didn't take care of......it's decision time......you have 1 nanosecond to decide wether or not you are going to kill someone to survive. During that nano second, before the thought even finished, you have already fired shots, killed one person, and you are targeting the other. Once everything is over with, you realize that the instinct to survive is more powerful than any amount of principled, political, or philosophical alignment. The human mind simply overrides morality.

All of that happens in less than 20 seconds. Does that sound like the time to make a profound political statement? Are the Bad guys gonna play nice now that you've had this new revelation? They just killed 15 of their own people trying to get to you. Until you've been in that situation, it'd probably be best that you don't say stupid shit about things you have no concept of. Thats what soldiers go through.

You on the other hand. You'll just sit in your heated home, watch political crap on your cable TV, while you surf the internet, go to the movies, get a hot shower, drive your own car, go out to the bar, eat wherever you want, whenever you want, have a poker night, argue with friends about politics. You probably go and buy a coffee, go to your job, in a nice building with a not so comfy chair. Completely safe from everything but an earthquake. And you'll say that soldiers are cowards becuase they're out dodging bullets. No one put them in that situation right? They chose it?

You fuckin chose it for them. Every single one of you that ever thought it would be a good idea to join the libertarian party and vote for someone who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected, or having his voice heard by anyone other than the John Birch Society. All of you that didn't vote at all, all of us that allowed the Government to slowly take more and more power. Everyone that never held their Senator or Congressman accountable for what they do. Everyone that waited until now, when our Republic is on the brink of ruin, to finally go out and try to tell people to "stop", to realize whats happening.

All of that complacency led us here, to this war, to this financial mess. And all of us, whether by action, or inaction, are a part of it, and all of us are responsible for it.

I realize that everyone is happy, they have a cell phone that can wash dishes for Christs sake, so projecting your hatred of the war, on those who fight it is perfectly fine. We wouldn't want people to feel like they bare some responsibility for the people they choose to run the country, do we?

that about sums it all up perfectly.

BTW: These people should follow their own "personal responsibility" logic. Who is PAYING for this war? THEY ARE! Which makes them PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE, if you subscribe to their idiotic viewpoint. If they really believe that, they should refuse to pay taxes and suffer the consequences.

Bunch of fucking hypocrites

 

[WRellim]

You think that's funny? No shit I volunteered, it was my choice, and I knew exactly what I was signing up for. Does it fucking look like I'm asking for a fucking handout? I wasn't "braggin' bout" anything, you fucking simpleton. And no, I didn't "f'd up big time", But you will, if you spout that shit off to the wrong person. I wasn't bitching, just pointing out a point of veiw. You have every right to bitch and moan like a fucking three year old about shit you know nothing about, and yet a person that has been in these situations is all of the sudden a machismo fucking lunatic? You think it was about playing GI fucking Joe? My whole family is military, tough guy. I didn't join to kill me some arabs. I joined to serve becuase I liked my country and was willing to put my neck out for it. I guess to some shitheaded dumbfuck like you actions such as that are meaningless and trivial. It's something only the people of the most simplistic minds engage in.

Being a condescending asshole, and speaking ebonics to a person like me is nice though, I like to see what kind of enviornments the worst of us had to grow up in. No wonder you're fucked up.



Wow, must be soooo hard for you. I can't begin to think of the amount of sacrifices you have had to make.

Threaten me, makes me feel good, especially coming from an internet dipshit like you. Fucking back hoe? People gonna take care of me fast enough? I'm quaking in my fucking boots. Hopefully it's not a ethically challenging business descision, wouldn't want you to have a moral crisis.

Did I blame everyone but myself? Or did I blame everyone. You make it this far in life and still haven't learned how to use context clues in a standard sentence?

I've been all over the world, literally. I've seen the best and the worst. I've even been to a few circuses, a couple carnivals, and a crocidile show. It is becuase of this that I can say, without any doubt in my mind whatsoever, that you are, hands down, the dumbest mother fucker I have ever seen.

Have a nice day. I hope you get run over my a train.

Avaroth, you're just making an ass out of yourself.

You popped off at a person who essentially agrees with you, and wrote several OTHER posts saying exactly that (but without the f'ing attitude and BS) long before you popped your mouth off in the thread.

But did you bother to read the threads? No, no you, you're too important to do that... so you just popped off.

Deal with it.

 

[klamath]

Some on here appear to be the holier than thou types that wouldn't dare expose their lifes actions except to tell us how great they are because they turn down contracts and don't make quite as much money. Unless you have been there one cannot really appreciated the fact it is a kill or be tortured to death world there. If you are an American soldier there and are captured you are not offered your Geneva convention rights, you are tortured to death in the most horrible way. The one rule there is if you are fighting you had better die before you get captured.
For those that like too hand out their holier that thou statements you might find your holiness does not hold so well if you put your life up to be examined for crimes against humanity both directly and indirectly. If you paid Taxes and utilized the resources secured by the might of the American empire (such as the fuel you drive around with) you support the war and bear the same amount of responsibily as the soldier because you were too much of a fucking coward to take the consequences of not paying taxes of living like the Amish.

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

Some on here appear to be the holier than thou types that wouldn't dare expose their lifes actions except to tell us how great they are because they turn down contracts and don't make quite as much money. Unless you have been there one cannot really appreciated the fact it is a kill or be tortured to death world there. If you are an American soldier there and are captured you are not offered your Geneva convention rights, you are tortured to death in the most horrible way. The one rule there is if you are fighting you had better die before you get captured.
For those that like too hand out their holier that thou statements you might find your holiness does not hold so well if you put your life up to be examined for crimes against humanity both directly and indirectly. If you paid Taxes and utilized the resources secured by the might of the American empire (such as the fuel you drive around with) you support the war and bear the same amount of responsibily as the soldier because you were too much of a fucking coward to take the consequences of not paying taxes of living like the Amish.

QFT!!!

 

[WRellim]

Some on here appear to be the holier than thou types that wouldn't dare expose their lifes actions except to tell us how great they are because they turn down contracts and don't make quite as much money. Unless you have been there one cannot really appreciated the fact it is a kill or be tortured to death world there. If you are an American soldier there and are captured you are not offered your Geneva convention rights, you are tortured to death in the most horrible way. The one rule there is if you are fighting you had better die before you get captured.
For those that like too hand out their holier that thou statements you might find your holiness does not hold so well if you put your life up to be examined for crimes against humanity both directly and indirectly. If you paid Taxes and utilized the resources secured by the might of the American empire (such as the fuel you drive around with) you support the war and bear the same amount of responsibily as the soldier because you were too much of a fucking coward to take the consequences of not paying taxes of living like the Amish.

Spoken like a TRUE legionnaire who knows everything about obedience, and nothing about liberty.

"Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms."
-- Congressman Ron Paul

But I guess the above fellow is just another "holier than thou type"
​

And speaking of "Holier than thou types" ?

How pitifully poor are the one's you've cited at being "holier than thou" -- in comparison to those who are all about the worship of thuggery; than those who swallow whole all the tainted kool-aid poured out by the military-industrial complex. Who buy into the role's assigned, the causes championed, and a complete inversion of the principles of the American Republic, substituting instead the concepts of the Praetorian Guard.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."
-- George Washington

"Don't regard yourself as a guardian of freedom unless you respect and preserve the rights of people you disagree with..."
-- Gerard K. O'Neill

"My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military."
-- Gen. Smedley Butler

"If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army."
-- Frederick the Great
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon."
-- Napolean Bonaparte

"Military glory--that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood--that serpent's eye, that charms to destroy..."
-- Abraham Lincoln

"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
-- Gen. Omar N. Bradley

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
-- Gen. Smedley Butler

"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear."
-- Gen. Douglas MacArthur

"War is never beneficial except for those in position to profit from war expenditures."
-- Congressman Ron Paul

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-- Albert Einstein

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions."
-- Colonel James A. Donovan, USMC

"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations."
-- David Friedman

"Dress it as we may...huzza it, and sing swaggering songs about it, what is war, nine times out of ten, but murder in uniform?"
-- Douglas Jerrold


"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower​