"Lincoln the Tyrant; Libertarians' favorite boogeyman."

Actually it did free the slaves in the Southern territories that were occupied by Union troops. In fact that was largely the point. Lincoln didn't have constitutional authority to free slaves generally. But here he was using his "commander in chief" powers. And it made sense with the way the war was being fought. Why bother burning bridges and ironworks and such while leaving in place the labor force that built those bridges and ironworks?

See: http://www.civilwar-history.com/Emancipation-Proclamation.aspx


Intentionally omitted were Maryland and Delaware (which had never seceded), Tennessee (already under Union control), and Missouri and Kentucky (with factional governments that had been accepted to the Confederacy, but had not officially seceded). Specific exemptions were stated for 48 counties designated to become the free state of West Virginia, along with several other named counties of Virginia; and also New Orleans and several named parishes in Louisiana already under Union control.


Also, according to the Time/Life series "Brother Against Brother", in January, 1865, Lincoln had agents meet with Jefferson Davis' representatives and made an offer. The South could hold onto their slaves until 1870 and then the U.S. government would pay the slave owners $2,500 for each slave. The only condition was for the South to rejoin the Union and stop the rebellion. The South agreed to the slave offer, but refused to rejoin the Union; thus the war continued. The book points out that had the South been allowed to continue as a separate government, it would have sold the slaves to the U.S., thus freeing them, if it meant ending the war. But rejoining the Union was out of the question.
 
Intentionally omitted were Maryland and Delaware (which had never seceded), Tennessee (already under Union control), and Missouri and Kentucky (with factional governments that had been accepted to the Confederacy, but had not officially seceded). Specific exemptions were stated for 48 counties designated to become the free state of West Virginia, along with several other named counties of Virginia; and also New Orleans and several named parishes in Louisiana already under Union control.

From the proclamation itself:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. Johns, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South-Carolina, North-Carolina, and Virginia, (except the fortyeight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth-City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

Some areas in the above mentioned states were in Union control the day the emancipation proclamation was signed. Also Tennessee was not fully under Union control until 1863. Further the proclamation had an effect on territory gained after January 1, 1863. As Sherman marched through Georgia in 1863 - 1864 a large group of freed slaves followed the union army.

Also, according to the Time/Life series "Brother Against Brother", in January, 1865, Lincoln had agents meet with Jefferson Davis' representatives and made an offer. The South could hold onto their slaves until 1870 and then the U.S. government would pay the slave owners $2,500 for each slave. The only condition was for the South to rejoin the Union and stop the rebellion. The South agreed to the slave offer, but refused to rejoin the Union; thus the war continued. The book points out that had the South been allowed to continue as a separate government, it would have sold the slaves to the U.S., thus freeing them, if it meant ending the war. But rejoining the Union was out of the question.

That's nice. By 1865 the south was effectively defeated already. Lee himself surrendered in April. Lincoln was being magnanimous to even make the offer.

(See: http://americancivilwar.com/tl/tl1865.html)

Also if the civil war had been only about "tariffs" then secession was stupid. The Morrill Tariff never would have passed had the senators from the south remained to vote against it.

(See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff)
 
Intentionally omitted were Maryland and Delaware (which had never seceded), Tennessee (already under Union control), and Missouri and Kentucky (with factional governments that had been accepted to the Confederacy, but had not officially seceded). Specific exemptions were stated for 48 counties designated to become the free state of West Virginia, along with several other named counties of Virginia; and also New Orleans and several named parishes in Louisiana already under Union control.


Also, according to the Time/Life series "Brother Against Brother", in January, 1865, Lincoln had agents meet with Jefferson Davis' representatives and made an offer. The South could hold onto their slaves until 1870 and then the U.S. government would pay the slave owners $2,500 for each slave. The only condition was for the South to rejoin the Union and stop the rebellion. The South agreed to the slave offer, but refused to rejoin the Union; thus the war continued. The book points out that had the South been allowed to continue as a separate government, it would have sold the slaves to the U.S., thus freeing them, if it meant ending the war. But rejoining the Union was out of the question.

Lincoln was a tyrant. The Southern States wanted to be free and Lincoln was not going to be satisfied with that.

I read a book called The Secret Six about Lincoln's cabinet and how tyrannical and evil it was. It covers the supporters of John Browns radical butchering of innocent women and children. Great book.
 
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You = brick wall....

I already told you. The slave holding states rejected the idea! It doesn't matter how freaking good YOU think it was since THEY REJECTED THE IDEA!

Hey, I already told you I got the point.
Orchestrating the deaths of 650,000 of your own citizens is acceptable if your single attempt at an alternative fails.

We're still dealing with the fallout from that 145 years later. But hey, he pitched one other idea, so it's all good.
 
Hey, I already told you I got the point.
Orchestrating the deaths of 650,000 of your own citizens is acceptable if your single attempt at an alternative fails.

We're still dealing with the fallout from that 145 years later. But hey, he pitched one other idea, so it's all good.

And you base the idea that Lincoln had an estimated body count for the civil war on.......?

Anyhow, why do you think the south seceded (since higher tariffs weren't really passable until after secession) and why do you give them a free pass?
 
Lincoln was a tyrant. The Southern States wanted to be free and Lincoln was not going to be satisfied with that.

I read a book called The Secret Six about Lincoln's cabinet and how tyrannical and evil it was. It covers the supporters of John Browns radical butchering of innocent women and children. Great book.

Yes. Anti-slavery abolitionists = bad. Pro slavery butchers = good. There is no credible evidence of John Brown ever killing any women. In response to the Lawrence massacre by pro-slavery forces, Mr. Brown and his sons attacked Pottowattaomie and killed 5 men. (All adult from the accounts I've seen).

Anyhow, there's no doubt at all that Brown was in the fight strictly over slavery. Lincoln had mixed motives.
 
Anyhow, why do you think the south seceded (since higher tariffs weren't really passable until after secession) and why do you give them a free pass?

A fruitful exercise for you would be to place the U.S. Constitution and the Confederate Constitution side by side, and compare the changes. The vast majority of these changes were to strengthen the rigidity of what constituted legitimate taxation, as well as a stronger assertion of decentralized power via more explicit clauses on the reservation of powers to the states.

So, yes, slavery was but a minor part of their reasoning.
 
A fruitful exercise for you would be to place the U.S. Constitution and the Confederate Constitution side by side, and compare the changes. The vast majority of these changes were to strengthen the rigidity of what constituted legitimate taxation, as well as a stronger assertion of decentralized power via more explicit clauses on the reservation of powers to the states.

So, yes, slavery was but a minor part of their reasoning.

I've read the confederate constitution. I noticed where it denied states the right to end slavery. :(

ARTICLE IV

Section I. (I) Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State; and the Congress may, by general laws, prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


Anyhow, the hated "Morill Tariff" could not have passed without secession.
 
Big Government is an arm of Breitbart, who is a neoconservative.
 
Anti-slavery abolitionists = bad. Pro slavery butchers = good.

No, Anti-slavery abolitionists = bad. Pro slavery butchers = bad. They were both bad.

While I don't understand the pro-slavery attitudes on this forum, I don't understand the pro-Union sentiments, either.
 
And you base the idea that Lincoln had an estimated body count for the civil war on.......?

Well, I'm not. Although he did have plenty of casualty reports to ruminate on over the course of four years, he was losing significantly in the beginning, the Union was clearly throwing more bodies into the meat grinder than the CSA, and he chose to continue.

However you seem to be not only defending Lincoln, but also the chain of events that took place.
I'm not going to defend wars happening ever again. In the case of every problem except foreign invasion, there are nonviolent means that can be attempted.
Lincoln obviously didn't really believe this.

Anyhow, why do you think the south seceded (since higher tariffs weren't really passable until after secession) and why do you give them a free pass?

Because they had the legal right to do so, and Lincoln had no legal right to stop them.
Everything else is quite outside that point. Lincoln was an active destroyer of the rule of law. What good he did in the process is immaterial, and I do not believe that the good he did was only doable in the manner he chose.
It happened and I can't change it - but I can call out similar bullshit pulled using similar arguments today, if I first admit that what he did was bullshit.

Meh, Lincoln's dead, back to the current neo con/social con/liberal/government interventionist/authoritarian nightmare.

Uh huh, because not understanding how we got here is bound to help.
 
I've read the confederate constitution. I noticed where it denied states the right to end slavery. :(

ARTICLE IV

Section I. (I) Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State; and the Congress may, by general laws, prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


Anyhow, the hated "Morill Tariff" could not have passed without secession.

Ok, I won't argue with you. All of the information is out there. You seem to have gone over at least some of it and made your decision, and I can respect that. Don't expect too many people here to take your side, though :o

Personally, I find statements such as the following to be quite prescient. I'll let everyone judge for themselves.

If centralism is ultimately to prevail; if our entire system of free Institutions as established by our common ancestors is to be subverted, and an Empire is to be established in their stead; if that is to be the last scene of the great tragic drama now being enacted: then, be assured, that we of the South will be acquitted, not only in our own consciences, but in the judgment of mankind, of all responsibility for so terrible a catastrophe, and from all guilt of so great a crime against humanity. -Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America

I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only are essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it. -Robert E. Lee, in a letter to Lord Acton
 
While some here are ruminating over the ethics of Lincoln's decisions, I will once again remind them to recall that Lincoln presided over the ""Largest mass hanging in United States history"
38 Santee "Sioux" Indian men
Mankato, Minnesota, Dec. 16, 1862


http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html



I get sick of all the emancipation arguments regarding Lincoln while racism against the native americans perpetrated by the wonderful one gets swept by the wayside. His effect on the native populations was genocide.
 
No, Anti-slavery abolitionists = bad. Pro slavery butchers = bad. They were both bad.

While I don't understand the pro-slavery attitudes on this forum, I don't understand the pro-Union sentiments, either.

Abolitionists should not be blamed for the Civil War. The war was caused by rich motherfuckers fighting over power and resources, just like every other one. Blame should be placed on the State and the rich assholes who own it.
 
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Abolitionists should not be blamed for the Civil War. The war was caused by rich motherfuckers fighting over power and resources, just like every other one. Blame should be placed on the State and the rich assholes who own it.

^This. It fight between rich northern industrialists and rich southern planters with the poor on both sides paying the price in blood. But if you say anything critical about the south some folks want to say you're defending all things Lincoln. I have to laugh at the "It was the south's legal right to secede" crowd. That "legal right" is basically "natural law" (i.e. made up law) which also justified John Brown's massacre. (Natural law is of course in the eye of the beholder).

@malkusm: Don't worry about me. As a black Ron Paul supporter I'm used to being on my own on a lot of things. ;)
 
Abolitionists should not be blamed for the Civil War. The war was caused by rich motherfuckers fighting over power and resources, just like every other one. Blame should be placed on the State and the rich assholes who own it.

There are abolitionists, like the Quakers, who were not responsible for the war. But abolitionists who were radical republicans, and the rich northern businessmen who claimed to be abolitionist were very much behind the war. The term "abolitionist", may too broad of a term. If I said republicans are responsible for the Iraq war, someone could correct me and say "No, not all republicans because Ron Paul was against the war."
 
There are abolitionists, like the Quakers, who were not responsible for the war. But abolitionists who were radical republicans, and the rich northern businessmen who claimed to be abolitionist were very much behind the war. The term "abolitionist", may too broad of a term. If I said republicans are responsible for the Iraq war, someone could correct me and say "No, not all republicans because Ron Paul was against the war."

Lincoln's motives were clearly not to end slavery, but I fully support people like John Brown (a "radical Republican") who used violence in an attempt to free their fellow Americans. If I were to fall under that type of tyranny in America, I'd hope Americans would react in the same fashion to rescue me.

That said, I'll leave you with the quote: "Moderation in the protection of liberty is no virtue; extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice." --Goldwater
 
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A few points:

1) Lincoln's compensated emancipation plan failed because he proposed to deport the slaves to various colonies in Africa rather than allow them to stay here on American soil. Like many in the Republican party at that time, he wanted an ethnically pure nation (a "white dream," if you will) devoid of anyone with slightly darker-colored skin. And that simply wasn't possible with the existence of slavery as an institution.

1856 Republican platform: "...all unoccupied territory of the United States, and such as they may hereafter acquire, shall be reserved for the white Caucasian race – a thing that cannot be except by the exclusion of slavery."

Many people who opposed slavery at the time opposed it not out of humanitarian or altruistic concern for the plight of their fellow human beings in bondage, but because the elimination of slavery would've spelled the beginning of a new era in which new territories would have been preserved for the Master Race. I believe Illinois at one time, a free state, barred blacks (even free ones) from entering their borders.

David Wilmot, though a Democrat, opposed slavery for similar reasons. As a legislator, the Wilmot Proviso (which he proposed as an attachment to an appropriations bill during the Mexican War) would have banned slavery in all newly acquired territory. Did he oppose slavery because he felt sorry for the poor slaves? No, not at all actually. His exact justifications for the proposal were as follows:

"I would preserve to free white labor a fair country, a rich inheritance, where the sons of toil, of my own race and color, can live without the disgrace which association with Negro slavery brings upon free white labor."

2) Anyone on this forum defending John Brown needs to have their heads examined. In one particular raid, he and his supporters dragged innocent men from their homes (none of whom owned slaves, but apparently belonged to the wrong Kansas "faction") and butchered them in front of their families, with their wives and children screaming in horror. I read a comment on here along the lines of, "He didn't kill any women, so it's okay." What. The. Fuck. Why is it any more horrible to kill an innocent woman than it is to kill an innocent man? The killing of innocents is never, ever justified. EVER.

3) Compensated emancipation, though a splendid proposal that the Northern abolitionist Lysander Spooner himself supported, was not the only alternative to the war, in case anyone who dismisses it ipso facto concludes that the war was the only other option. One method was to have the fugitive slaves escape to the North, who would then be under no obligation to return the slaves to the seceded South, since the North/South were separate jurisdictions not bound together by fugitive-slave laws. The abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison, in fact, heartily supported this position, saying before the Civil War that the North should secede from the South for this purpose. The cost of slavery would then become prohibitive, and the institution would collapse upon itself. Another was to allow for gradual emancipation. Slavery was already on its way out. Most Southerners at the time did not own slaves. By 1828, there were more than four times as many anti-slavery societies in the South as there were in the North. There existed an array of newspaper publications in the South publicly denouncing the institution of slavery. Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson described slavery as a "moral and political evil." Blacks fought alongside the Confederate troops, most by voluntary choice, and in defiance of laws written by Southern legislators prohibiting them from doing so. Another solution involved emancipation societies, whereby members would persuade slaveowners to voluntarily free their slaves. You also have to note that most civilized nations at the time were ending slavery. In order to maintain healthy trade relationships with other countries, the South would have had to end slavery eventually, lest trading partners refused to exchange goods with them on the basis that trading with partners who condoned slavery would generate barbaric symbolism. Also, the South would have most certainly lost its competitive edge in the world market, seeing as free laborers who reap rewards for their work and choose their areas of specialization, as any good libertarian knows, are more efficient, productive, and motivated to work than unpaid slave labor. The Southern economy would be devastated if it decided to keep slavery much longer. From an economic point of view, indefinite slavery is completely undesirable if you wish to generate prosperity.

Anyone who demonizes the South as being "vicious" and "backwards" and "racist" must also do the same for the colonists who fought for their independence in the American Revolution. They, too, were fighting to maintain their institutions of self-government and traditional "English" liberties. Like the Confederate South, they owned slaves. Like the North, the British offered to free the slaves of the American colonies in exchange for their loyalty and allegiance. So you can definitely see the parallels. But does anybody – anybody – on this board side with the British?
 
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