Light bulb ban to take effect

[angelatc]

Damn. Wish I had seen this last year:

 

[angelatc]

but horses and bicycles ARE outlawed on most roads, aren't they?

I don't know about horses, but bikes are usually legal on all roads, except the interstate AFAIK.

 

[Dr.3D]

You can throw your CFLs in the garbage. They'll teach them!

That's what confuses me. Florescent light tubes have always had the same contents as one of those CFL "bulbs" and I've seen thousands of them thrown in the trash. I guess the mercury in them has suddenly become more dangerous than it was forty years ago?

 

[JK/SEA]

You can throw your CFLs in the garbage. They'll teach them!

sigh...really?...thats the best you can do when our choices are mandated by your buddies in congress?

i can still go out and buy a used, running FORD Pinto if i want...but i won't be able to buy a light bulb OF MY CHOICE...

fuck this shit.

 

[angelatc]

sigh...really?...thats the best you can do when our choices are mandated by your buddies in congress?

i can still go out and buy a used, running FORD Pinto if i want...but i won't be able to buy a light bulb OF MY CHOICE...

fuck this shit.

Yeah. And remember...the GOP is the party that gave us the light bulb ban. It is also the same party that tried to overturn it. And it now trying to overturn Obamacare.

They're weak. Always on defense, never on offense.

 

[eduardo89]

Yeah. And remember...the GOP is the party that gave us the light bulb ban. It is also the same party that tried to overturn it. And it now trying to overturn Obamacare.

They're weak. Always on defense, never on offense.

The law was actually passed in 2007, when the Democrats had control of the both the House and Senate, but Bush did sign it into law.

It passed the House 264-163. 159 Republicans voted no, while only 36 voted in favor. 228 Democrats voted in favor, and only 4 against.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

Walter Jones voted in favor of it, Ron Paul voted against it.

 

[angelatc]

The law was actually passed in 2007, when the Democrats had control of the both the House and Senate, but Bush did sign it into law.

It passed the House 264-163. 159 Republicans voted no, while only 36 voted in favor. 228 Democrats voted in favor, and only 4 against.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

Walter Jones voted in favor of it, Ron Paul voted against it.

Look for the Rep who introduced the bill. He lost his seat over it later, I think. ETA: Fred Upton, Michigan

 

[eduardo89]

Look for the Rep who introduced the bill. He lost his seat over it later, I think. ETA: Fred Upton, Michigan

Fred Upton is still in Congress. While he didn't introduce the bill, he did co-sponsor it, but ended up voted against it.

It was introduced by Nick Rahall, a Democrat from West Virginia. The bill was part of the Democrats' "100-Hour Plan."

 

[Anti Federalist]

Well, it might not hurt to have your meter calibrated. But in our old house we had surges you could see. Al the lights would brighten and /or dim. I don't get that so much here, but the bulbs don't last any longer.

It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.

I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally.

The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.

 

[JK/SEA]

gotta watch that left/right paradigm mindset.

i'm learning that when i start pointing fingers, i use my toes as well.

 

[angelatc]

It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.

I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally.

The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.

According to what I read, the norm should be around 117v. I'm out of my comfort zone. We need to hear from an electrician.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Her next move will involve calling you a shill, and then posting some story that unrelated to the original topic, but has at least an undertone of corporate malfeasance.

It's ironic that you would rep me because you use that same tactic in the vaccine threads.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I am not sitting here saying I won anything. I am saying "think..." who stands to gain with endless wars. Who stands to gain by discrediting alternative energy? Who stands to gain by making living off the grid illegal? How stands to gain by banning alternative medicine? Who stands to gain by making alternative food illegal? What major corporations have a monopoly on our media?

Our government has been hijacked--plain and simple. We, as consumers, are paying for the chains that are enslaving us. It's all about control.

Yes, our government has been hijacked, but by whom? Not just someone wanting to make money. Our politicians aren't just there to make money off of dirty deals just like businesses aren't controlling it for the sake of making money off of it. TPTB aren't just some CEOs, they're much more powerful than that.

 

[donnay]

Yes, our government has been hijacked, but by whom? Not just someone wanting to make money. Our politicians aren't just there to make money off of dirty deals just like businesses aren't controlling it for the sake of making money off of it. TPTB aren't just some CEOs, they're much more powerful than that.

I get where you're going and I agree. My apologies.

 

[FindLiberty]

Yep, 127 VAC is a typical residential reading (Chicago suburbs). I've seen highs like 132/133 too.

I haven't checked industrial three phase power lately, but it was also very high (~128?) many moons ago.

When I was a 10 year old kid (testing 12AX7 tubes at the drugstore in the early 1960's) the expected and
specified AC line voltage was 110. Then came 115 / 117. Now it's supposed to be 120 VAC and that usually
measures 125+ with highs of 133 (measured on a quality, RMS capable digital meter like your Fluke).

Low line voltage used to cause AC motor and HVAC Compressor failures due to overheating. The higher line
voltages of today solved that problem and possibly started another set of problems. Those CFL lamps
seem to run very hot and then die after several years of hard use. I've seen 'em melt their own internal
solder connections to completely de-install the way-too-hot switching transistor. Discolored plastic bases
and dark tube ends are signs of this kind of thermal runaway self-destruct. It's known and expected with CFLs.

There's still an occasional Japanese 100V transformer getting ready to smoke here and there (plugged into
"120" 127 VAC USA power), but most modern switching power supplies are fine at any line voltage, and
some don't even care if it's 120 or 240 if the label says so. Don't get me started on all the troubles from
bad capacitor chemistry that happen at higher than line DC and at very low DC voltages. Ditto for some
split phase AC motor caps too.

It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.
I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally. The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Yep, 127 VAC is a typical residential reading (Chicago suburbs). I've seen highs like 132/133 too.

I haven't checked industrial three phase power lately, but it was also very high (~128?) many moons ago.

When I was a 10 year old kid (testing 12AX7 tubes at the drugstore in the early 1960's) the expected and
specified AC line voltage was 110. Then came 115 / 117. Now it's supposed to be 120 VAC and that usually
measures 125+ with highs of 133 (measured on a quality, RMS capable digital meter like your Fluke).

Low line voltage used to cause AC motor and HVAC Compressor failures due to overheating. The higher line
voltages of today solved that problem and possibly started another set of problems. Those CFL lamps
seem to run very hot and then die after several years of hard use. I've seen 'em melt their own internal
solder connections to completely de-install the way-too-hot switching transistor. Discolored plastic bases
and dark tube ends are signs of this kind of thermal runaway self-destruct. It's known and expected with CFLs.

There's still an occasional Japanese 100V transformer getting ready to smoke here and there (plugged into
"120" 127 VAC USA power), but most modern switching power supplies are fine at any line voltage, and
some don't even care if it's 120 or 240 if the label says so. Don't get me started on all the troubles from
bad capacitor chemistry that happen at higher than line DC and at very low DC voltages. Ditto for some
split phase AC motor caps too.

All that ^^^

 

[DamianTV]

According to what I read, the norm should be around 117v. I'm out of my comfort zone. We need to hear from an electrician.

Out of Date Electronics Background.

AC vs DC

AC is Alternating Current
DC is Direct Current

DC is the basis for Electronics, while AC is a Power Source.

With electronic components, like Memory in a Computer, a constant unchanging voltange is needed to maintain a "state" which is a really simplified from of how something electrical can maintain that "state", and thus "memory".

AC allows electricity to flow in one direction, then changes to the other direction. So it makes trying to measure the Power of AC consumption more difficult because it is so inheritly different from DC. An example of DC would be like a 12 volt battery. It puts out 12 volts at all times when it supplies power. In AC, that Voltage goes back and forth between 12 volts and -12 volts because it alternates. So AC would have a Peak Power of 12 volts, but because it goes back and forth, the math explains that since it isnt constant, it needs to be quantified differently. Which is where you might hear the term of RMS Power. RMS is lower than Peak Power in AC, in DC (constant) its always the same. AC and DC have advantages and disadvantages. Electronics cant run on AC, so AC needs to be converted from AC to DC. Power out of the wall to give juice to your computer or TV.

DC is type of power that any LED will need. Now, to try to explain what an LED is. LED is a Light Emitting Diode. I'll skip the Light Emitting part and jump into a Diode. A diode is a type of electronic component that allows an electrical current to only flow in one direction but not the other. These types of components are what are needed to convert AC to DC power and so forth because they only allow current to flow in one direction, but not the other. Now LEDs light up when there is current going through them.

I'll try to explain Current, Voltage, and Power as best as I can.

Current is the Number of Electrons flowing through a Circuit. You can have something that has a low voltage but a very high current. Current is what makes electricity dangerous. For example, you rub your feet on the carpet and get a shock, that shock has very very high voltage but zero current so it isnt dangerous. Those shocks can come as high as 50,000 volts or higher, but there are very few electrons to carry that power. I guess it could be described as if you were hit by one nerf ball going 50,000 miles an hour, but since it has no mass, you're aware that it made contact, but does no damage.

Voltage could be equated to "how fast" something is going. Its a very poor analogy since in electricity, its all actually going the speed of light, but makes more sense if you think of Voltage as like the flow of water through a garden hose. From the Garden Hose perspective, if there is very little water but a lot of "speed", you might have a Super Soaker or a Squirt Gun. That would be "High Voltage". You could also have a River that flows very very slowly. It has lots and lots of Water, but no speed. But if you were to kick up both the Quantity of Water, and the Force behind that Water, thats where you measure POWER.

POWER in Electicity is measured by multiplying Voltage and Current. Voltage is measured in, unsuprisingly, Volts, while Current is measured in Amps. So when you see claims that something has X number of Amps of Power, thats not its real power because your Voltage is not known. Power is measured in Watts. For example, compare the "Power Rating" of your Vaccum cleaner, usually measured in Amps (which is kind of BS), and your Microwave Oven, measured in Watts. The Watts provides accurate Power consumption, but trying to say something has X Number of Amps being power is not accurate for how much power something has. Your Power Bill is also measured in Watts, not Amps.

In electricity, you can Increase your Amps and Decrease your Volts to alter that electricity for whatever purpose. 2 Volts x 1 Amp = 2 Watts. Likewise 1 Volt x 2 Amps = 2 Watts. or 0.5 Volts x 4 Amps = 2 Watts. To "Transport" electricity over long distances, low voltates and increased Current is used because it prevents power loss. Thats why a Fallen Electrical Lines are so dangerous. Very very high current (Amps) to transport the eletricity but also makes it very dangerous. Household power is "safer" because it has a lot less current than what is carried on the power lines. Transformers are used to change that Voltage into Current at the Power Company and Current into Voltage on the Transformer for the Power Lines outside your house. Those are referred to as Step Up and Step Down Transformers.

Now, the way that this relates to Lightbulbs and LEDs in general is the type of power they use. The standard Incandescent Lightbulb (the one with the filament) can use either AC or DC power. Current goes through the filament and it heats up to create the "glow" that creates light. Problem there is that most of the power is actually given off in Heat, not Light. LEDs have a downside that they can only use DC power. The advantage is that they are much more energy efficient and give off much less heat than they do light. LEDs are based on Diode Technology which for a long time was only designed to work at low power levels. 12 volts, but your wall pumps out 120 volts peak power, which has a lower average and RMS power, but is still so much that it can easily fry most diodes. Diodes rated for 12 volts pretty much explode if you apply 120 volts DC power to them. So for an LED Lightbulb to work, first, that wall power has to be both converted from AC to DC, then stepped down so that the voltages applied to the LEDs receive only 12 volts. It also requires a Power Regulater to step down both the Current and Voltage, which is part of what makes them more efficient, more expensive to produce, and unfortunately, more parts that can fail.

Those Power Regulators are devices like what we call the "Wal Warts". Like the old video gaming consoles that had this big Brick you plugged into the wall, or your Cell Phone charger. Those devices step down the current and voltage and allow your Cell Phone to charge, and 8 Bit Nintendo Systems to work.

Fluorescent Lightbulbs, the ones that many times use Mercury also require what is called a Ballast. Ballast is used to energize the gases that are contained within the bulb itself. Again, its an increased cost due to more parts. Those Fluorescents could be best imagined from the type of ceiling lights in an office building. A lot of times, it isnt the Bulbs themselves that burn out, although they do, but its the Ballast that burns out. Fluorescents do have an advantage in that once the gases in the bulbs go into an "excited state" or where they're giving off light, they consume very very little power. They consume the most power when they are turned on, but take much less to maintain that excited state. And as is typical with most electronics, lightbulbs, and computers, failure of components occurs when those devices are turned on and off. Like when an Incandescent Bulb burns out, you flip the switch and it goes pop and burns out usually when you flip the switch. Same thing happens to your Fluroescent Bulbs as its the Ballast that fails, and LEDs, not so much as the LED itself that fails, but the Power Regulators and converters that fry. If we were to turn on an LED light and leave it on, it is very possible to leave that light on for literally a thousand years. But its that turning on and off that cooks the components, and usually the other components that fail.

Its this knowledge that has caused me to be Skeptical of the claims of LED lights are "better". Really, its a matter of investment costs and time to recover those intial costs to add up to savings. If LED lights burned out only half as quickly as an Incandescent Bulb, but cost twice the cost of the Incandescents, it would provide a savings due to total power consumption. But if the savings is offset by having to replace an LED bulb as frequently as the Incandescents, it is no longer financially advantageous to buy excessively expensive LED lights. The solution is that any type of light consumes as little power as possible, provides maximum light output, and lasts for maximum period of time, thats where the real savings are. Of course, LED lights are probably like anything else, you get what you pay for. LEDs have the potential to be great, but not if we have to spend excesses of money to replace bulbs more frequently than we should.

Hence, the "Corporate Greed" statement. Sure, keep your manufacturing costs as low as possible. But many companies survive due to repeat business. So they build in Planned Obsolescence where parts are manufactured to fail frequently because it provides repeat business. What would happen if cars were purposefully designed so poorly that you had to replace it every two years? I dont mean just fix one part on the car as some component failures have to be expected due to wear and tear, but for the whole car to be replaced. You'd probably perceive that as Corporate Greed as much as anyone else. We dont expect a single hamburger to be able to sustain us for years. Which is why the food industry is profitable. There is no expectation that a burger will fill us up for much more than a relatively short period of time. But in terms of other devices that fail more often than they should, I believe that is Planned Obsolescence and is a means of Corporate Greed. Its not as if Light itself ever becomes technologically outdated, but the components are not mechanical and thus should fail much less than they are. Iphones, computers, and TVs are becoming obsolete because there is newer technology that outperforms the old technology. At some point, that technology just is no longer compatible. 64 bit software cant run on a 32 bit machine. Its just newer technology, that isnt planned obsolescence as the tech has truly advanced. Planned Obsolescence could also be described as selling a person a license to read a book that expires after three months. The book doesnt change at all and the person is only given opportunity and license to read the book for a limited period of time. Hence why there is some angst against E-Books.

As usual, Im way off topic. Its not that I am opposed to LED lights. Or Pro. Im for what ever can save me the most ammt of money. I dont believe that what is available at this time is going to save me as much money as their claims vs reality indicate. The real problem at the heart of this is that the Law being passed results in Enforced Consumerism that does not yet provide the results that are needed. It wouldnt be much different than passing a Law that requires all toothbrushes to be Electronic Pulsating Toothbrushes, but with the added touch of not only requiring all Toothbrushes to be Electronic, but to take away the choice from the person to not be allowed to Floss either.

It sounds like Eduardo also has an electronics background, and Im so out of date, he could probably correct any issues with my explanation of electronics theory and possibly incorrectly defined terms.

http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Power.html

---

@AntiFederalist

On your power meter, did it tell you what type of power measurement was being measured more specifically? RMS (Root Means Squared), or Peak (aka Peak to Peak) for AC current? A tad more info and we can fine tune the answer.

 

[Anti Federalist]

@AntiFederalist

On your power meter, did it tell you what type of power measurement was being measured more specifically? RMS (Root Means Squared), or Peak (aka Peak to Peak) for AC current? A tad more info and we can fine tune the answer.

LOL...I seem to have misplaced my MIT degree.

Fuck I dunno...I turned the meter to measure VAC up to 600 volts and started taking readings when I suspected the house lines of having other, unrelated issues.

Was surprised to find higher than normal readings.

I have since done it randomly when the mood strikes me or when I notice an obvious fluctuation in power.

 

[DamianTV]

Doesnt require an MIT degree to understand.

http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Power.html

If you look at the voltage at its peak, it hits about +170 V, decreases through 0 to -170 V, and then rises back through 0 to +170 V again. (You might think this value of 170 V should really be 110 - 120 volts. That's actually a kind of average of the voltage, but the peak really is about 170 V.) This oscillating voltage produces an oscillating electric field; the electrons respond to this oscillating field and oscillate back and forth, producing an oscillating current in the circuit.

Only concept to really get is that in AC power, like the image indicates, that there is a Peak Power, an Average Power, and RMS Power, all three of which can be measured differently. You might have heard of something called a Three Phase Power Supply. What that would do is provide a much higher RMS Power. A 3 Phase Power Supply allows one of the phases to be at Peak Power while the other two Phases are not at their Peak Power. House Power Supply is typically a Single Phase, provided at 60Hz (cycles per second), while in Europe, they use 50Hz.

Also, in terms of Commercial Power (like for ones house), spikes in Voltage are quite normal and it isnt actually where most problems come from. Problems come in the form of Sustained Levels. Also, oddly enough, but a lot of Electronic Component Faiulres occur as a result of too little power as opposed to too much. When there is too little power, components start behaving unexpectedly. Components are usually rated to handle about a 20% variation in power. So say you have a 12 volt DC battery. The components that it powers are designed to work around that 20% variation. So when the battery drops down to 11 volts, components still work as expected. But drop down to 10 volts (-20%) and a component that is designed to operate at 12 volts isnt going to stay in its expected state. Apply 12 volts and a component is considered to be ON, but at 0 volts, its off. At 10 volts, theres no guarantee that it will be either on or off, and as a result, excesses of current can flow through the circuit, which is much higher than the power that is rated for, thus, components fry due to too little power causing too much power elsewhere in the circuit.

Does that sort of make sense?

If you see power that is on average above the expected rating, IE 120 volts AC and see it at 128 Volts, that could be considered to be a good thing as devices are designed to handle those spikes. But dropping to 95 Volts, that might wreak havoc in electronics. Of course, it still goes back to the basic of Balance. IE, Load Balancer (another type of Electronic Circuit). Too much or too little in extremes either way is where problems occur.

 

[FindLiberty]

Stop giving away all those electronic secrets or ELI the ICE man might come for you... in your sleep!

http://www.electronicstheory.com/html/e101-31.htm