Liberty vs. Technology: Can they Coexist?

[CUnknown]

I've read the Manifesto several times, although it has been a while since the last time. I used to be a big fan, now less so.

It's true in my mind that human engineering poses a big problem for the freedom movement, and it is one thing that we must fight against, although only one among many. Technology such as RFID certainly people in this movement recognize as a problem. And a worse problem RFID implanted in people. And maybe even worse when RFID gets so ubiquitous that it is everywhere, in everything we buy.

Obviously people on this forum would see technologies such as genetic engineering to make a more docile populace something to fight against. And I'm sure most recognize that in a sense this is already here in the form of pharmaceuticals. That's something the Unabomber talks a lot about -- we are subjected to conditions that many people find intolerable without medications, so in a way these medications are allowing conditions to get as bad as they are, because otherwise there would be revolution (or at least civil unrest).

I think people are not reading the Manifesto with an open mind, because it is right up this movement's alley. On the other hand, the Manifesto does have flaws. One being that it doesn't fully come to grips with the liberating aspects of technology. The internet hadn't reached its potential back then -- there was no YouTube, no cops being caught committing crimes on video for hundreds of thousands of people to watch the very next day. There was no Ron Paul internet Revolution back then.

So, technology does have positive, liberating aspects. The Unabomber sees technology as bad at its core. You may have a different take on it. But, the Manifesto as a whole is not just "Luddite bullshit" and it can't be dismissed so easily. There are reasonable arguments both for and against.

I think it's an open question -- will the Government eventually censor the internet so that conversations like this cannot take place? Will we be RFID tagged against our will like animals? The Ron Paul Revolution needs to succeed so that technology can be a positive force for freedom, because if we fail it will certainly be used to enslave us.

 

[regtoday]

"People spend a large and increasing amount of time submitting to canned entertainment rather than participating in spontaneous activities. As overcrowding and rules and regulations curtail opportunities for spontaneous activity, and as the developing techniques of entertainment make the canned product ever more attractive, we can assume that people will live more and more in the world of mass entertainment."

This was written before the Internet. The premise no longer stands.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

You will be assimilated. You will submit to the collective. Resistance is futile.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

A new brain has emerged.... Social media and the internet have enabled the human super organism.

Human super organism? I don't feel all warm and fuzzy about that...

Indeed, it is what fueled this movement from the start.

Yep, the positive side of the internet revolution...the ability to spread ideas without the censorship of the establishment and the mainstream media... at least there is little censorship now.

The future will tell how this ends up. Calls are already out there for central "editing" and approval of internet content.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

"People spend a large and increasing amount of time submitting to canned entertainment rather than participating in spontaneous activities. As overcrowding and rules and regulations curtail opportunities for spontaneous activity, and as the developing techniques of entertainment make the canned product ever more attractive, we can assume that people will live more and more in the world of mass entertainment."

This was written before the Internet. The premise no longer stands.

You are an optimist. You see a glass that is 90% empty as if it were full. The vast majority of Americans only know what "mass entertainment" and the mainstream media tell them. Even on the internet, the mainstream media types dominate.

 

[regtoday]

You are an optimist. You see a glass that is 90% empty as if it were full. The vast majority of Americans only know what "mass entertainment" and the mainstream media tell them. Even on the internet, the mainstream media types dominate.

True, but it will only take one killer app to change all of that. Whenever that app emerges it will take over the web in weeks. It will be a revolution machine.

 

[Natalie]

RPF party in the chat! a drunken naked party! woo! "We're going streaking!" wooOOO!

 

[Conza88]

RPF party in the chat! a drunken naked party! woo! "We're going streaking!" wooOOO!

Hahah.. are you drunk?

How many peeps at the party? Did JoespehTotalitarian try spike the punch?

I was afk..

 

[Elwar]

Technology is a tool to be used by either side. Look at the printing press...it helped to spur a Revolution that gave us all of the freedoms we have today. It has also been used for propaganda purposes. The Internet was the place to be if you wanted any coverage of Ron Paul. Look at the oppressive countries and look at the more free countries and tell me which countries are trying to stifle the technology of the Internet and which are encouraging its growth.

Heaven forbid a mechanism is created that can kill another with a single trigger, that mechanism might be used by the government to destroy us all. Or it can be used by every individual to rise up and revolt against an oppressive government/king.

 

[Mani]

Technology is a double edged sword.

It can be a great way to promote freedom and give knowledge and access to people and give them a voice as by the examples people have provided.

It can also be a great tool used to control what people can see, use, etc.

The internet has allowed us to spread and express our message of freedom. But countries implement blocks and even some of our current media in the US (paper, TV) are controlled.

But remember even the most controlled software system is susceptible to Hackers. There are good and bad hackers, there will always be hackers. hackers who find a way to get AROUND the controls.

So if you fear the internet could become another controlled medium, remember the Hacker will be there to break those controls.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

We have created in the past 20 years something that has never existed in the history of man: 24x7 survellience of everyone. We have created the Big Brother of 1984, or Santa Claus if you prefer. They "see you when you're sleeping, they know when you're awake".

The only thing they can not do is read your mind, but even worse, they will infer your mind via all the information they gather. And yes, they will often be wrong. You visited anarchist websites? You watched "V" 75 times? You followed Ron Paul? You were in the neighborhood when the Federal Reserve was blown up? Sorry, you're going to Guantanimo. They know you were thinking about it.

How are you monitored?

- Your digital cable box (what you watched).
- Your cell phone and text messages.
- Your IMs, chats, e-mails, facebook pages, websites visited, etc.
- Your GPS (cellphone too).
- Your car monitors your speed and acceleration.
- Cameras and microphones everywhere.
- Credit cards and ATMs cards (can also store purchases).
- Employee passcards, toll quick pass cards, etc monitor your location.


Is having a 24x7 survellience agent (with a perfect memory) a hinderence to Liberty? To the Constitution? To the 4th Amendment? This has never existed before.

 

[ronpaulforprez2008]

We have created in the past 20 years something that has never existed in the history of man: 24x7 survellience of everyone.

The only thing they can not do is read your mind, but even worse, they will infer your mind via all the information they gather.

Yippee, someone who gets-it!

With network connected sensors everywhere, they are building the biggest control-feedback-loop ever. The world is a system, and in order to manage that system the managers need input via sensors, and then they need mechanisms to exercise control, such as the media (whether it be mainstream, alternative, or Internet). Technology is the tool set that facilitates this control.

On a side note, one type of sensor Brian didn't mention in his excellent post is the gyroscope, which really started (as far as the consumer is aware) in the iPhone and now is everywhere: cellphones, camera's, laptops, automobiles, etc. Did you realize that someone can monitor the gate of your walk by tapping into your iPhone's gyroscope, and from that information potentially determine your health? Next time you go to order that Pizza the pizza store isn't going to sell it to you because the pace of your walk has changed in such as way as to determine that you likely have heart disease.



Oh, and for those who are so very supportive of the Internet and think that the controllers would actually shut it down in some way, just think about the fact that it was DARPA and various academic and government labs that spent 40yrs developing the Internet before they gave it to the public. That's 40yrs of modeling, scenario analysis and usage before it was released. Do you really think they would allow the public to have such a powerful technology without building in various failsafe control mechanisms prior to its release? It's the greatest monitoring and persuasion tool ever built, there is no incentive to dissuade the public from using it...none at all.

 

[AutoDas]

uhh yeah whatever you want to believe. Technology is not evil just as guns are not evil.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

uhh yeah whatever you want to believe. Technology is not evil just as guns are not evil.

Good analogy. They are only evil in the hands of a government...

 

[ronpaulforprez2008]

"There is no distinct line between "guidance" or "influence" and manipulation. When
a technique of influence becomes so effective that is achieves its desired effect in
nearly every case, then it is no longer influence but compulsion. Thus influence
evolves into compulsion as science improves technique."

What your saying is we're all robots. I completely agree. What happens when the science is widely understood, and robots program robots?

Initially, the controllers program the robots to suit the controllers' ends. Over time, the robots help the controllers by: (1) programming each other, and (2) enforcing the controllers' programs. Of course, the Department of Education and the Mass Media are two of the biggest culprits here.

I've read the Manifesto several times, although it has been a while since the last time. I used to be a big fan, now less so.

It's true in my mind that human engineering poses a big problem for the freedom movement, and it is one thing that we must fight against, although only one among many. Technology such as RFID certainly people in this movement recognize as a problem. And a worse problem RFID implanted in people. And maybe even worse when RFID gets so ubiquitous that it is everywhere, in everything we buy.

Obviously people on this forum would see technologies such as genetic engineering to make a more docile populace something to fight against. And I'm sure most recognize that in a sense this is already here in the form of pharmaceuticals. That's something the Unabomber talks a lot about -- we are subjected to conditions that many people find intolerable without medications, so in a way these medications are allowing conditions to get as bad as they are, because otherwise there would be revolution (or at least civil unrest).

I think people are not reading the Manifesto with an open mind, because it is right up this movement's alley. On the other hand, the Manifesto does have flaws. One being that it doesn't fully come to grips with the liberating aspects of technology. The internet hadn't reached its potential back then -- there was no YouTube, no cops being caught committing crimes on video for hundreds of thousands of people to watch the very next day. There was no Ron Paul internet Revolution back then.

So, technology does have positive, liberating aspects. The Unabomber sees technology as bad at its core. You may have a different take on it. But, the Manifesto as a whole is not just "Luddite bullshit" and it can't be dismissed so easily. There are reasonable arguments both for and against.

I think it's an open question -- will the Government eventually censor the internet so that conversations like this cannot take place? Will we be RFID tagged against our will like animals? The Ron Paul Revolution needs to succeed so that technology can be a positive force for freedom, because if we fail it will certainly be used to enslave us.

I think one of the primary issue here is who controls the ideation, development, deployment and usage of technology. And the fact is that it is the psychopaths who are in power who deploy techniques that only service their end. I believe this is the problem that Kaczinski sees... and we've had a psychopathic power elite in charge since the beginning of time. So his calls to eliminate technology is with this strongly in mind.

Do me a favor and check out this page which is a summary of Ellul's discussions on Technique:

http://www.usd.edu/~ssanto/ellul.html

I believe Ellul saw the implementation of technology a foregone conclusion, saying: "Everything which is technique is necessarily used as soon as it is available without distinction of good or evil. This is the principal law of our age"

 

[Brian4Liberty]

We have created in the past 20 years something that has never existed in the history of man: 24x7 survellience of everyone. We have created the Big Brother of 1984, or Santa Claus if you prefer. They "see you when you're sleeping, they know when you're awake".

The only thing they can not do is read your mind, but even worse, they will infer your mind via all the information they gather. And yes, they will often be wrong. You visited anarchist websites? You watched "V" 75 times? You followed Ron Paul? You were in the neighborhood when the Federal Reserve was blown up? Sorry, you're going to Guantanimo. They know you were thinking about it.

How are you monitored?

- Your digital cable box (what you watched).
- Your cell phone and text messages.
- Your IMs, chats, e-mails, facebook pages, websites visited, etc.
- Your GPS (cellphone too).
- Your car monitors your speed and acceleration.
- Cameras and microphones everywhere.
- Credit cards and ATMs cards (can also store purchases).
- Employee passcards, toll quick pass cards, etc monitor your location.


Is having a 24x7 survellience agent (with a perfect memory) a hinderence to Liberty? To the Constitution? To the 4th Amendment? This has never existed before.

Necrobump for the surveillance state...

 

[idiom]

Generally speaking the government sucks at implementing technology, its why companies like Palantir exist.

most of the bitching about technology is private individuals getting you addicted to their technology.

I mean if you expect me to be against private development of private technology because you lack self control and can't tell the difference between a company and a state...