Libertarians should stop insulting cops

Are you guys libertarians or anarchists? Seriously.


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Yeah. Anarchists believe in no government. Libertarians like myself believe in government limited to only the functions which would fall apart otherwise. Local and state law enforcement is the number one example. I feel much safer knowing there's police out there protecting the community I love from falling apart.

Yeah, that's just what all of the Statists say. :p :rolleyes:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anarchist

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Yeah, that's just what all of the Statists say. :p :rolleyes:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anarchist

lib.png

I'm at the peak of that chart too. But I still believe very much in law and order.

Cops are humans, and they make mistakes, but for the most part, they do extremely well at a job that's probably a lot harder than yours... at least in my city they do. They have a great reputation here. You are blinded by your weak ideology, though, so you anarchists can only see the what you want to see.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why are you on a Ron Paul forum? Ron Paul clearly supports a national government and the rule of law. Is it because he supports smaller government and you're willing to compromise to get closer to your goal, or what?
 
Im not an anarchist. Im not a total libertarian. In my idea of a better world (not perfect, just better than what we have), we would be more balanced between the rights of people against cops (when people turn to being jackasses for cops) and of the people (when we want to keep murder and armed robbery illegal).

Cops turn into assholes, we find it on youtube. We turn into the assholes, we see it on Cops the TV show. Both sides can be just as asshole as the other, we need a balance between what is expected that a cop can and can not do. Dont arrest me for jaywalking at 2am in a town where the population is 50, and we wont spit in your faces when we see you trying to enforce an actual crime. The way I see it now is most cops spend much of their time running around playing musical speeding cars just to make money, and completely ignore the gang banger spray painting on the side of my neighbors garage.
 
You're mixing up what you see on the media and what reality is. The mainstream media is full of shit in pretty much every category.
 
I'm at the peak of that chart too. But I still believe very much in law and order.

Cops are humans, and they make mistakes, but for the most part, they do extremely well at a job that's probably a lot harder than yours... at least in my city they do. They have a great reputation here. You are blinded by your weak ideology, though, so you anarchists can only see the what you want to see.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why are you on a Ron Paul forum? Ron Paul clearly supports a national government and the rule of law. Is it because he supports smaller government and you're willing to compromise to get closer to your goal, or what?

Yes, and that job has morphed from what it used to be, Serve and Protect.

The training now is putting the cops on a war footing against us, the people.
 
I'm at the peak of that chart too. But I still believe very much in law and order.

Cops are humans, and they make mistakes, but for the most part, they do extremely well at a job that's probably a lot harder than yours... at least in my city they do. They have a great reputation here. You are blinded by your weak ideology, though, so you anarchists can only see the what you want to see.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why are you on a Ron Paul forum? Ron Paul clearly supports a national government and the rule of law. Is it because he supports smaller government and you're willing to compromise to get closer to your goal, or what?

I'm sorry, but I am unable to accept nor believe your claimed position on the Nolan chart. Do you vote? If so, you are a statist.<IMHO>

What is your opinion of the Non Aggression Principle? Does the state aggress? Obvious answer, YES.

Of course cops ( AKA "law enforcement" officers ) are human and make mistakes. DUH!! ALL people are and do. :rolleyes: That is precisely why they should not be given too much power. Most people can not handle too much power. It tends invariably to corrupt them.

Weak ideology? By what moral right and / or legitimate authority do some people get to rule other people against their will? Simple question, simple answer.<IMHO>

Aw go ahead, I can handle rude. ;) I am here because I like Ron Paul and have now for decades. Also because I choose to be here. And yet Ron Paul also clearly supports LRC. As do I. Curious, no? Actually it will be necessary to pass through Ron Paul's world on the road to get to mine. Currently humanity is STILL being dragged in the exact opposite direction.

Ron has a campaign slogan of "Freedom, Peace and Prosperity". Sign me up. I'm a HUGE fan of all three of those. The state is NOT.

An anarchist is anyone that wants less government than you do. ;)

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Thanks! :)

"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"
 
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When cops are given power and authority beyond their Constitutional guidelines, they become perpertrators of the states existence, thereby weakening civil society.
 
I'm sorry, but I am unable to accept nor believe your claimed position on the Nolan chart. Do you vote? If so, you are a statist.<IMHO>

This post is going off on a bit of a tangent, but I felt like I had to address this...:
I take issue with this label. First of all, even complete anarcho-capitalists can and will often vote for candidates who want to significantly reduce state aggression, even if they won't eliminate it entirely. Case in point: Ron Paul! The rigidly idealistic anarchists may disagree, but the pragmatic anarchists realize that you cannot eliminate state aggression overnight...if you did (through violent revolution, for instance), the slavish masses would simply erect a new government just as powerful as the last. The public must become educated before they will agree to reduced state aggression, muchless abolished state aggression - so in the meantime, reducing the burden is a better short-term goal than doing nothing.

Secondly, calling people "statists" merely for voting unfairly lumps them into the same category as the real totalitarian statists that the term is commonly reserved for, such as Communists, fascists, Hillary Clinton, etc. ;) Sure, anyone who believes in the existence of a state whatsoever can technically be considered "statist," but that's not how the term is commonly understood. Because of its connotation, it's misleading and even insulting to apply the label to a minarchist, any kind of libertarian, or even an old-school conservative / classical 19th century liberal. Along with anarchists, people believing in any one of these ideologies fundamentally believe in the supremacy of individual rights, and while we all have disagreements, our commonalities are so much greater. We all stand together in our belief in individual rights, and we stand against the real statists, who believe in the supremacy of the state and/or collective even when their ideology calls for massive rights violations or sacrificing individuals against their will for the "greater good."

I believe that unless you conservatively reserve your use of the term "statist" to people who actually deserve its widely accepted connotations, you risk alienating people who you should consider very strong allies in most respects...especially considering the real enemies you're facing.

When it comes down to it, the disagreements anarchists have with minarchists, classical liberals, etc. are mainly twofold:
  1. They disagree on the means for maximizing the practical exercise of our basic rights: In other words, they disagree on how much government, if any, is necessary to keep the peace and ensure liberty. Anarchists are on the extreme ideological end of the spectrum, since they argue that no aggression, taxation, or existence of a state is justified whatsoever. Furthermore, they argue that liberty is maximized in practice by a society that condones no legal aggression.

    As an aside, giving away my minarchist leanings: While the last statement is true, absence of government cannot by itself automatically educate people about non-aggression or make them understand the equal and fundamental rights of all. It should be obvious by the way our idiotic populace consistently votes for state expansion that these principles are largely lost on them, and that an absence of government would merely create mob rule and mob justice (somewhat similar to unfettered democracy, except thankfully without the supposed legitimacy of the state making people blindly loyal to the will of the majority). In today's society obsessed with witch hunts and the like, you should expect that under anarchy, anyone merely accused of a terrible crime (like child molestation for example) would be lynched instead of given a fair trial...and the crowd would be too big to stop. The fact is, our culture is so screwed up that most people don't even BELIEVE in a fair trial anymore, and it's ironically only the herd's worship of government authority and conditioned response against vigilantism and "taking the law into your own hands" that is keeping them from lynchings.
  2. The various "shades of gray" individualist groups also disagree with anarchists in particular about whether the ultimate goal should be maximizing the practical exercise of basic rights at all, or whether the ultimate goal should be legally condoning no aggression whatsoever. Even if, hypothetically, states are absolutely necessary to make laws and fund courts and peace officiers, and even if absolute mob justice would inevitably and always result from the absence of a state*...even if all of these things were true, pure anarchists would still say that even a small amount of state aggression (taxation for performing the most basic functions) is intolerable in comparison. They would say it's better to have unrestrained mob violence everywhere than to permit the existence of a single entity that everyone recognizes as having the "legitimate" authority to engage in aggression...even if it only commits the bare minimum necessary - and equally against everyone (i.e. without unfairly sacrificing certain individuals for the "greater good") - to minimize the sum total of aggression committed against individuals. Frankly, I disagree with this absolutist stance against government, because I feel that it's self-defeating to the practical goals of liberty.

(*For the record, I don't think anarcho-capitalism is inevitably quite SO disastrous as that, but in our current climate, people are nowhere near ready for it. I think that if we lived and were educated for many generations in a society with a minarchist government, people might eventually be ready, but...when it comes down to it, I still think anarcho-capitalism has some inherent flaws that outweigh the inherent flaws of minarchist government in terms of maximizing liberty - that's irrelevant to the discussion, though.)
 
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I believe that unless you conservatively reserve your use of the term "statist" to people who actually deserve its widely accepted connotations, you risk alienating people who you should consider very strong allies in most respects...especially considering the real enemies you're facing.

So, suppose you, dear reader, are saying I'm a libertarian and you can't tell me how to use this damned word. Well, with freedom comes responsibility, and just look at how we are discriminated against because of the deliberately irresponsible use of the word 'conservative' over the years. Or, for that matter, the confusion caused by the misuse of the word 'liberal'. People don't even know that's what we are because the word was corrupted over the years. Maybe it's the natural order of things for words to get watered down by overuse and replaced by new ones that are fresh enough to still be strong, but still. Maybe that troll they banned last night was a statist, but there hasn't been one posting here since--at least, not as we know the word today. If you call every Bachman Turner Overdrive and every Grand Funk Railroad that comes along cool, rad and tubular, when the next Talking Heads shows up you have to invent a whole new vocabulary to describe them. Don't you?

[/END RANT]
 
This post is going off on a bit of a tangent, but I felt like I had to address this...:
I take issue with this label. First of all, even complete anarcho-capitalists can and will often vote for candidates who want to significantly reduce state aggression, even if they won't eliminate it entirely. Case in point: Ron Paul! The rigidly idealistic anarchists may disagree, but the pragmatic anarchists realize that you cannot eliminate state aggression overnight...if you did (through violent revolution, for instance), the slavish masses would simply erect a new government just as powerful as the last. The public must become educated before they will agree to reduced state aggression, muchless abolished state aggression - so in the meantime, reducing the burden is a better short-term goal than doing nothing.

Secondly, calling people "statists" merely for voting unfairly lumps them into the same category as the real totalitarian statists that the term is commonly reserved for, such as Communists, fascists, Hillary Clinton, etc. ;) Sure, anyone who believes in the existence of a state whatsoever can technically be considered "statist," but that's not how the term is commonly understood. Because of its connotation, it's misleading and even insulting to apply the label to a minarchist, any kind of libertarian, or even an old-school conservative / classical 19th century liberal. Along with anarchists, people believing in any one of these ideologies fundamentally believe in the supremacy of individual rights, and while we all have disagreements, our commonalities are so much greater. We all stand together in our belief in individual rights, and we stand against the real statists, who believe in the supremacy of the state and/or collective even when their ideology calls for massive rights violations or sacrificing individuals against their will for the "greater good."

I believe that unless you conservatively reserve your use of the term "statist" to people who actually deserve its widely accepted connotations, you risk alienating people who you should consider very strong allies in most respects...especially considering the real enemies you're facing.






When it comes down to it, the disagreements anarchists have with minarchists, classical liberals, etc. are mainly twofold:
  1. They disagree on the means for maximizing the practical exercise of our basic rights: In other words, they disagree on how much government, if any, is necessary to keep the peace and ensure liberty. Anarchists are on the extreme ideological end of the spectrum, since they argue that no aggression, taxation, or existence of a state is justified whatsoever. Furthermore, they argue that liberty is maximized in practice by a society that condones no legal aggression.

    As an aside, giving away my minarchist leanings: While the last statement is true, absence of government cannot by itself automatically educate people about non-aggression or make them understand the equal and fundamental rights of all. It should be obvious by the way our idiotic populace consistently votes for state expansion that these principles are largely lost on them, and that an absence of government would merely create mob rule and mob justice (somewhat similar to unfettered democracy, except thankfully without the supposed legitimacy of the state making people blindly loyal to the will of the majority). In today's society obsessed with witch hunts and the like, you should expect that under anarchy, anyone merely accused of a terrible crime (like child molestation for example) would be lynched instead of given a fair trial...and the crowd would be too big to stop. The fact is, our culture is so screwed up that most people don't even BELIEVE in a fair trial anymore, and it's ironically only the herd's worship of government authority and conditioned response against vigilantism and "taking the law into your own hands" that is keeping them from lynchings.
  2. The various "shades of gray" individualist groups also disagree with anarchists in particular about whether the ultimate goal should be maximizing the practical exercise of basic rights at all, or whether the ultimate goal should be legally condoning no aggression whatsoever. Even if, hypothetically, states are absolutely necessary to make laws and fund courts and peace officiers, and even if absolute mob justice would inevitably and always result from the absence of a state*...even if all of these things were true, pure anarchists would still say that even a small amount of state aggression (taxation for performing the most basic functions) is intolerable in comparison. They would say it's better to have unrestrained mob violence everywhere than to permit the existence of a single entity that everyone recognizes as having the "legitimate" authority to engage in aggression...even if it only commits the bare minimum necessary - and equally against everyone (i.e. without unfairly sacrificing certain individuals for the "greater good") - to minimize the sum total of aggression committed against individuals. Frankly, I disagree with this absolutist stance against government, because I feel that it's self-defeating to the practical goals of liberty.
(*For the record, I don't think anarcho-capitalism is inevitably quite SO disastrous as that, but in our current climate, people are nowhere near ready for it. I think that if we lived and were educated for many generations in a society with a minarchist government, people might eventually be ready, but...when it comes down to it, I still think anarcho-capitalism has some inherent flaws that outweigh the inherent flaws of minarchist government in terms of maximizing liberty - that's irrelevant to the discussion, though.)

Fallacy of quoting out of context
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context



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Opinion noted. ;)

:)
 
I'm not seeing how I quoted you out of context, to be honest...
The rest of your post and your primary disagreements with The Moog Magician seemed pretty unrelated to the particular statement I isolated and quoted. Although I agree with you that The Moog Magician appears to have more statist leanings than most here (in terms of his views on police), your statement about voting seemed very direct and context-insensitive. Even in the context of your post, it seemed to me like you meant it as a general statement that applies to anyone and everyone that votes, not just The Moog Magician. Maybe you didn't mean in that way, but that's the way I read it.

Then again, maybe you're saying I quoted you out of context because I did not consider the context of your entire body of posts...and that if I had, I would obviously know that you're not actually an anarchist and couldn't possibly have meant your statement in the literal sense that I took it? To be honest though, I often forget all of that deeper context. I kind of take each post as it comes, and my memory isn't good enough to always remember others' particular leanings (except when it comes to posters that regularly draw attention to themselves ;)).
 
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I'm not seeing how I quoted you out of context, to be honest...
The rest of your post and your primary disagreements with The Moog Magician seemed pretty unrelated to the particular statement I isolated and quoted. Even in the context of your post, it seemed to me like you meant it as a general statement that applies to anyone and everyone that votes, not just The Moog Magician. Maybe you didn't mean in that way, but that's the way I read it.

I know that you don't. THAT is the problem.<IMHO>

Plus my post was directed TO Moog Magician, not you.

Strike TWO. ;)
 
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I know that you don't. THAT is the problem.<IMHO>

Plus my post was direct TO Moog Magician, not you.

Strike TWO. ;)

Speaking strictly logically...
If your quoted statement about voting was indeed general and equally applicable to all voters, it naturally follows that it can warrant a response from any voter, not just the one it was spoken to. (To illustrate why, consider the following situation: You're with two friends. You tell the first, who's wearing a brown shirt, "Anybody who wears brown is a douchebag." Your other friend is wearing brown pants, so despite not being directly spoken to, he is nevertheless being spoken about and in earshot. He is now justified in stating a position, because your blanket statement pertaining to him actually drew him into an argument he was previously not a part of.)

Therefore, the only possible logical mistake I may have made is if I was wrong in considering your statement about voting to be general and equally applicable to everyone. That makes it only ONE strike for me...and even that single strike is contingent upon you being able to explain how I quoted you out of context.

However, by failing to consider that the second supposed "strike" logically follows from the first (and therefore cannot be itself a separate error in logic), it seems like that's at least strike one for you...TWO if you're unable to logically support your assertion that I quoted you out of context. ;)
 
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Speaking strictly logically...
If your quoted statement was indeed general and equally applicable to everyone, it naturally follows that it can warrant a response from anyone.

Therefore, the only possible logical mistake I may have made is if I was wrong in considering your statement about voting to be general and equally applicable to everyone. That makes it only ONE strike for me...and even that single strike is contingent upon you being able to explain how I quoted you out of context.

However, by failing to consider that the second supposed "strike" logically follows from the first (and therefore cannot be itself a separate error in logic), it seems like that's at least strike one for you...TWO if you're unable to logically support your assertion that I quoted you out of context. ;)

Did you use the quote button and then edit my post?

Extracting from the full context, constitutes "out of context".<IMHO>

Was my response post directed to someone else?

I'm not picking on you in particular. The problems are both widespread and endemic here on the RPF.

Even the mods routinely do it. :rolleyes:
 
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Did you use the quote button and then edit my post?

Extracting from the full context, constitutes "out of context".<IMHO>

Was my response post directed to someone else?

I used the quote button and removed statements that were superfluous and entirely unrelated to the independent statement I wanted to address. Removing surrounding statements from a single quote does not necessarily take the statement out of context. If the surrounding statements are unrelated to the quote (as I argue they were), removing them does not remove context. If the surrounding statements are strongly linked with the quote in a way that the quote's meaning or intent is obviously subverted by removing them, that constitutes quoting out of context. For instance, on the page you linked to about the fallacy of quoting out of context, the example with Darwin perfectly illustrates how his words were taken out of context (because his following statements were used to explain why his quoted statement is apparently untrue, no matter how much it strains the imagination to believe so). Your statement about "voter = statist," on the other hand, was a fully-expressed general statement that was in no way touched upon again or mitigated in the rest of your post, prior to or following the statement itself. It stands alone as a context-insensitive statement...unless of course you can explain how the context of the surrounding statements link back to it and mitigate it in some way to make it anything other than a general statement that applies to all voters.

Anyway...which post are you referring to now when you say you were addressing The Moog Magician, rather than me? I first reasonably assumed you meant the post I initially quoted (containing the statement about "voter = statist"), and I already explained how that post drew me into the argument. However, it now seems you're referring to the post you made where you quoted my long post and seemed to address me exclusively...but I cannot see how that post could possibly be addressed to The Moog Magician.

P.S. Sorry I keep editing...I keep wanting to elaborate after hitting the post button. :p
 
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Removing surrounding statements from a single quote does not necessarily take the statement out of context. If the surrounding statements are unrelated to the quote (as I argue they were), removing them does not remove context. If the surrounding statements are strongly linked with the quote in a way that the quote's meaning or intent is obviously subverted by removing them, that constitutes quoting out of context. For instance, on the page you linked to about the fallacy of quoting out of context, the example with Darwin perfectly illustrates how his words were taken out of context (because his following statements were used to explain why his quoted statement is apparently untrue, no matter how much it strains the imagination to believe so).

Anyway...which post are you referring to now when you say you were addressing The Moog Magician, rather than me? I first reasonably assumed you meant the post I initially quoted (containing the statement about "voter = statist"), and I already explained how that post drew me into the argument. However, it now seems you're referring to the post you made where you quoted my long post and seemed to address me exclusively...but I cannot see how that post could possibly be addressed to The Moog Magician.

Thread post # 50. :)
 
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