Libertarian Apologists for Putin

[yadranko]

Can you stomach this critique discussion of antiwar libertarians in regards to war in Ukraine?

 

[sparebulb]

Lincoln, the guy who freed the slaves...

I was pretty much done with the setup before that quote.

 

[ClaytonB]

 

[TheTexan]

I wouldn't call that a critique, more of a mainstream regurgitation

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Libertarian Apologists for Putin

Next up, Objectivist Apologists for Neocons...

 

[pmbug]

I watched about 10 minutes. I don't use Twitter and other than what I see re-posted in forums and news aggregators, I don't follow what people and organizations post there, so I was seeing the Tweets mentioned for the first time. I was mildly surprised that stuff would be published on official channels.

There is a lot wrong with globalist groups like the WEF, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc. There is a lot wrong with the American political class and the current political structure that ensures sufficient barriers to entry to consolidate and protect power.

There seems to be a lot of anti-government folks in the liberty crowd who are pro-Putin and pro-CCP China simply because they are in opposition to the globalists (WEF, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc.) and American political class. From my engagement with folks on the meta subject, there really isn't a lot of critical thought about the support for the enemy of my enemy. Just a lot of water carrying and propaganda cheering where it brings the hate for their primary targets.

It seems to me that these folks have lost perspective.

 

[TheTexan]

There seems to be a lot of anti-government folks in the liberty crowd who are pro-Putin and pro-CCP China simply because they are in opposition to the globalists

I'm pro-Putin because I value the right to self determination and Putin is defending that right

 

[jmdrake]

I watched about 10 minutes. I don't use Twitter and other than what I see re-posted in forums and news aggregators, I don't follow what people and organizations post there, so I was seeing the Tweets mentioned for the first time. I was mildly surprised that stuff would be published on official channels.

There is a lot wrong with globalist groups like the WEF, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc. There is a lot wrong with the American political class and the current political structure that ensures sufficient barriers to entry to consolidate and protect power.

There seems to be a lot of anti-government folks in the liberty crowd who are pro-Putin and pro-CCP China simply because they are in opposition to the globalists (WEF, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc.) and American political class. From my engagement with folks on the meta subject, there really isn't a lot of critical thought about the support for the enemy of my enemy. Just a lot of water carrying and propaganda cheering where it brings the hate for their primary targets.

It seems to me that these folks have lost perspective.

When I was against the Iraq war that didn't make me pro-Saddam. Were you also against the Iraq war? Just asking.

When I was against the endless war in Afghanistan that didn't make me pro-Taliban. Were you also against the endless war in Afghanistan? Just asking.

When I was against the overthrow of Gaddafi which turned Libya into an open slave market that didn't make me pro Gaddafi. Were you also against the U.S. intervention in Libya? Just asking.

I'll have to admit. I support Assad in Syria. Yes he is an awful person. But he has protected Christians in his country. (Saddam protected Christians in Iraq too, but I didn't know about that until his overthrow). Putin specifically intervened in Syria to protect Orthodox Christians. Do you have a problem with the protection of Orthodox Christians? Just asking.

I don't think Putin should have invaded Ukraine. I understand the provocation. Ukraine did have biological weapons labs, Nazi's in their military ranks, and they were shelling the Donbass in violation of the Minsk accords. And the U.S. coup of 2014 set the stage for all of this. But still the human cost of war is terrible. I wouldn't be consistent if I was against the U.S. invasions and/or interventions of Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Tongo Tongo and other places I can't even think of at the moment and give Putin a pass. But, and this is a HUGE but, the U.S. intervention in Ukraine has made the suffering of the Ukrainian people immeasurably worse. If you can't see that then YOU have lost perspective! The Ukrainian army would have given up after a few months without NATO backing and agreed to peace talks. Hell, they were about to give up anyway, until Boris Johnson told them not to do so. How have the Ukrainian people benefitted from this?

As for China and the CCP, I haven't seen anyone cheer them on. In fact most people think they are working with the WEF because...they are. (So is Putin to be honest.) I think most people here would love to see CCP controlled TikTok, which literally recommends suicide to American children why pushing patriotism and traditional gender roles to Chinese children, be somehow taken down. But we see through the federal government power grab of all things internet that's been disguised as a bill to "ban TikTok." And what empowers Putin more than anything? Biden's anti American energy policy. The sanctions against Russia are only hurting the west! It doesn't matter whether I like it or not or you like it or not. That is simply fact! I already posted about this. Prior to the Ukraine war Germany was buying 80% of its natural gas from Russia. And now? It's back to 80% only it's much more expensive! So....who's being hurt by that?

You say "these folks have lost perspective." Ummmm...what perspective do you have?

 

[acptulsa]

I don't think Putin should have invaded Ukraine. I understand the provocation. Ukraine did have biological weapons labs, Nazi's in their military ranks, and they were shelling the Donbass in violation of the Minsk accords.

All politics is local. It isn't historically in the Russian character to put up with a government that would leave all of that unanswered. It isn't exactly in the American character, either, historically.

And the U.S. coup of 2014 set the stage for all of this.

Which means the American Military Industrial Complex deliberately put Putin in this box. With the petrodollar failing, it seems little regional wars are no longer enough for it. No wonder Mr. Burisma, Sr. was installed as "president". He's motivated enough to start World War III, and senile enough not to be too inconvenienced by it.

 

[Matt Collins]

There seems to be a lot of anti-government folks in the liberty crowd who are pro-Putin and pro-CCP China simply because they are in opposition to the globalists (WEF, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc.) and American political class. From my engagement with folks on the meta subject, there really isn't a lot of critical thought about the support for the enemy of my enemy. Just a lot of water carrying and propaganda cheering where it brings the hate for their primary targets.

It seems to me that these folks have lost perspective.

Yes and no. One can recognize that the Chinese and Russian governments are bad people but yet are taking predictable and reasonable actions for self-preservation based on reactions to what the US and other governments have done to them. Honestly there is no such thing as good government.

 

[pmbug]

When I was against the Iraq war that didn't make me pro-Saddam. ...

The pro-Putin and pro-CCP China sentiment that was talking about goes far beyond just "I don't support the US/NATO involvement in Ukraine" - especially with regards to Putin.

A lot of the China sentiment has been related to the BRICS and their plans for challenging dollar hegemony (even as they attempt to roll out the most draconian CBDC/Social credit yoke on the necks of their population).

You say "these folks have lost perspective." Ummmm...what perspective do you have?

I see a great irony in a group of people that almost singularly derides the CIA for supporting dissident elements in foreign countries to oppose the ruling regime carrying water for foreign power propaganda that serves the same purpose domestically.

We can and should take care of our own shit. I don't need to ride on the shoulders of foreign tyrants to fight for my beliefs.

 

[TheTexan]

I see a great irony in a group of people that almost singularly derides the CIA for supporting dissident elements in foreign countries to oppose the ruling regime carrying water for foreign power propaganda that serves the same purpose domestically.

How many of those foreign countries 1) seceded, and 2) asked us to intervene ??

 

[jmdrake]

The pro-Putin and pro-CCP China sentiment that was talking about goes far beyond just "I don't support the US/NATO involvement in Ukraine" - especially with regards to Putin.

A lot of the China sentiment has been related to the BRICS and their plans for challenging dollar hegemony (even as they attempt to roll out the most draconian CBDC/Social credit yoke on the necks of their population).



I see a great irony in a group of people that almost singularly derides the CIA for supporting dissident elements in foreign countries to oppose the ruling regime carrying water for foreign power propaganda that serves the same purpose domestically.

We can and should take care of our own $#@!. I don't need to ride on the shoulders of foreign tyrants to fight for my beliefs.

Okay. Well I applaud Putin for standing up for Christians in Syria. Absolutely I do. I make no bones or apologies about that. I haven't heard of the CCP standing up for Christians anywhere but if they do I'll applaud that too. I do applaud the CCP negotiating peace between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Maybe that will mean an end to the war in Yemen. I don't know. I understand the CCP did that for their own selfish aims but if it means fewer dead children in Yemen I'm all for that. I agree that China's CBDC is awful and the European Union one is awful and the one they are trying to bring to the U.S. is awful. But the only one that concerns me is the one they are trying to bring to the U.S. Desantis is already fighting it. RFK Jr. seems to be ready to fighting it. Trump seems to be against crypto in general (disagree with him on that). Biden absolutely supports it. As for BRICS, other nations seeking to get away from dollar hegemony is completely understandable. Not good for America in the short run. But if BRICS keeps the U.S. from throwing its "regime change" weight around so much I'm not going to cry about it.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

How many of those foreign countries 1) seceded, and 2) asked us to intervene ??

Ukraine "seceded" with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Given that you seem to have no problem with a state seceding, do you have an issue with Ukraine's "secession"?

 

[sparebulb]

Ukraine "seceded" with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Given that you seem to have no problem with a state seceding, do you have an issue with Ukraine's "secession"?

Crimea "seceded" with the dissolution of Ukraine as a sovereign nation, followed by the DPR and LPR.

I have no problem with Ukraine's "sucession".

Ukraine lost their independence when a western-backed extremist (not to mention genocidal) cabal overthrew and took control of the government in 2014.

 

[TheTexan]

Ukraine "seceded" with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Given that you seem to have no problem with a state seceding, do you have an issue with Ukraine's "secession"?

I applaud Ukraine's secession. The dissolution of the USSR in general is one of many data points in history that show secession can be peaceful.

Unfortunately, DPR's secession was not peaceful. Western Ukraine, despite their own history of self determination, decided to deny that same right to Eastern Ukraine when it seceded.

As usual, I am not looking to engage in debate with you. Either you can understand the above very simple point, or you cant.

 

[pmbug]

... As for BRICS, other nations seeking to get away from dollar hegemony is completely understandable. Not good for America in the short run. ...

BRICS efforts are likely to play out over the next decade or so before it seriously dents dollar hegemony. I don't know if that is what you consider a "short run" or not. But make no mistake, when the dollar is dethroned, it will be an existential threat to America's standard of living. It's not just going to curtail the US ability to project military capabilities around the world. America is going to get a very serious wake up call.

 

[jmdrake]

BRICS efforts are likely to play out over the next decade or so before it seriously dents dollar hegemony. I don't know if that is what you consider a "short run" or not. But make no mistake, when the dollar is dethroned, it will be an existential threat to America's standard of living. It's not just going to curtail the US ability to project military capabilities around the world. America is going to get a very serious wake up call.

In the long run, we all know (or should know) that basing an economy on dollar hegemony was total BS and couldn't last forever. Had Ron Paul gotten elected and actually been able to #endthefed, it would have taken us quickly to where BRICS is taking us "over the next decade" as you put it. Yes. America has to actually start manufacturing stuff again and not just military hardware. Umm.....okay. And? We're talking about the inevitable. Yes it's going to suck. I hear getting an appendectomy sucks. If your foot has gangrene getting it and/or your leg amputated sucks. I'm not at all bothered by the BRICS nations doing what's best for their economy. That would be like being mad at the Japanese for overtaking the U.S. auto market in the 1980s.

 

[TheTexan]

In the long run, we all know (or should know) that basic an economy on dollar hegemony was total BS and couldn't last forever.

Yea but if we had treated that hegemony with responsibility & care, it could have lasted a lot longer

 

[jmdrake]

Yea but if we had treated that hegemony with responsibility & care, it could have lasted a lot longer

Well as a nation we fell prey to the 7 deadly sins.