Lesser of two evils argument: how to respond?

[gilliganscorner]

Thanks! I'm really pleased that you enjoyed the article. The author was my original libertarian mentor, long ago.

Agorism? Surprisingly no, I had not heard of it? Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Agorism

It is probably one of the best articles I have read in a while! For the last 10 minutes I have been reading about RL. Very interesting....from an initial pass through, his thoughts are resonating with mine. I liked this quote:

"An anarchist is anyone who believes in less government than you do."

Agorism is essentially this:

We know that the State steals from us via taxation and inflation. Protesting/Voting won't change a damn thing (other than RP of course - but he is a start) For example:

In 1982, Reagan’s Secretary of State Alexander Haig made a telling statement. Hundreds of thousands of people had marched in New York City, protesting the administration’s Latin American foreign policies. When asked what he thought about the huge protest, Haig stated, “Let them protest all they want, as long as they pay their taxes.”

Haig defined the key.

Tax protesting/resistance has a 0 percent chance of success. The State will deploy violence with unmatchable firepower (I cite the case of Ed Brown) against you and your families and friends.

Agorism is holding on to your wealth by trading with trustworthy network of partners (prevent the State from stealing from you via taxes) and use sound money (prevent the State from stealing via inflation).

If we can set up a decentralized (it would have to be to avoid record seizure by the State a la Liberty dollar) network of people that are willing to trade part-time with others, we can avoid taxes and inflation altogether, cashing out sound money for fiat currency when we need to pay property tax or other unavoidable (yet) taxes. We would siphon off wealth from the State, rather than let the State siphon it off from us.

It would be like a virtual "Galt's Gulch" (if you have read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand you will know exactly what I mean), except we don't have to physically move. We can hide from the bad guys (the State) in plain sight!

Up here in Canada, we have a State sponsored terrorist agency called FINTRAC. They are Canada's "financial intelligence" agency that are warning our federal terrorists about "e-gold" websites. Of course they are using that tired old excuse that these sites are havens for money laundering by criminals and terrorists, but the reality is that they are warning that people are starting to trade in these networks to avoid the taxation system, thus holding onto at least 40% of their wealth (as they don't report it for taxation, regulation, and/or confiscation).


You can read my article on this here.

Let me know what you think...

Cheers!

 

[Kade]

I haven't followed this entire thread, but I'm curious--will your vote for Obama (I'm assuming that's who you plan to vote for) be a lesser of two evils vote, or will it be a vote of confidence?

Choices:

1. Bob Barr.
No. I know him. I know him personally, I lived in his district and the Newt's growing up. I despise the man.
2. John McCain.
Absolutely not. Never. I hate that we blindly accept bailout for corporations, and have the nerve to say that bailing out homeowners is socialism. I hate the growing theocracy, and I DESPISE "Constructionist" judges, they are a mockery of law theory and the foundation of this country.
3. Chuck Baldwin.
Theocrat. No way.
4. Ron Paul.
Yes. If he Runs.
5. Barack Obama.
Liberal. Socialist Democrat. If I have to pay a few more dollars out of my check (many of you, I imagine, will not), and swing the control of the government over to a less dangerous faction to see a better economy, a better foreign policy, and disposal of some of the more insane executive privileges I have ever heard of, then yes, I'll do it.
6. Cynthia McKinney
No.
7. Ralph Nader
No.
8. Brian Moore
No
9. Gene Amondson
No
10. Roger Calero
No


Did I miss anyone?

 

[gilliganscorner]

The whole point of democracy is to vote for the most qualified candidate--the one who will most follow the Constitution. If one doesn't vote like this, then one doesn't deserve a democracy.

Unfortunately, 90% of the voters look like this:

Democracy as it stands today is a utter failure.

 

[acptulsa]

Democracy as it stands today is a utter failure.

Easy now. Our republic is the most powerful nation on earth. I'm not giving the credit to government, I'm just disputing that the failure is "utter". Sick? Yes. Failing? Probably. Off course? Definitely. An utter failure?

As compared to...?

Nonetheless, it would be nice to get the republic back on course. That's why I'm here trying to help with that tiller.

 

[acroso]

I F' hate the two candidates.

Is that enough of an argument?

 

[YoungPatriot]

I would check with your States' elections laws regarding Write-In candidates. If Ron Paul isn't a certified "write-in" candidate and you write him in, your vote may be trashed. It's good you didn't vote for the lesser of the 2 evils, but it won't count for freedom either!!

If your vote gets trashed, your vote won't be counted in the Freedom Movement.

Wouldn't it be better to have Ron Paul be a valid write-in candidate, vote for him, and be counted? Making sure the establishement can see your vote?


FF

Good idea. I actually didnt know that there were certified "write-in" candidates. I will check though... Also, if you are in a county or district that uses Diebold you're fucked and you cant write in anyways. Luckily I still have paper so I can write in. Anyways, Ill never vote for Obama or McCain. They are both horrible choices. I cant support what they stand for as an American. Their voting records are both so terrible as well.

 

[acptulsa]

I F' hate the two candidates.

Is that enough of an argument?

For what it's worth, it works for me!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Demobcrazy!

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -- Henry David Thoreau

 

[SLSteven]

Demobcrazy!

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -- Henry David Thoreau

Good quote!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Good quote!

Thanks! I've been inspired, encouraged and fortified by it, more than twice.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

How do I respond to this?

That shit was hysterical. Clinton is just a continuation of Bush, who is a continuation of Regan, etc. They all did they same shit and ran this country into the ground. Look at this place, it's falling apart because of all these assholes. Tell him we are fucked and he may as well vote for the EVILER of two evils.

 

[Truth Warrior]

And may the BEST megalomaniac sociopath win .......... AGAIN!

 

[gilliganscorner]

That shit was hysterical. Clinton is just a continuation of Bush, who is a continuation of Regan, etc. They all did they same shit and ran this country into the ground. Look at this place, it's falling apart because of all these assholes. Tell him we are fucked and he may as well vote for the EVILER of two evils.

Maybe that is what we should be doing ARP (After Ron Paul). If RP does not become the nominee, we should hope for the WORST possible candidate to be elected. Would you want the economy to tank quickly or tank slowly?

I realize that I might be flamed out for this, but shouldn't we be focusing on creating an agorist network of partners, trading part time outside of the taxation system, and using sound money with each other? I.e. Create a true free market? If we don't have RP, isn't voting pointless? I'll bet you that if we DID have a 0% turnout at the polls, that would send the statists scurrying in fear...well, assuming that MSM reported it. They probably would make up numbers rather than report a 0% turnout.

That way, when things DO fall over, we will still have our network. The trick is in "the how" to get started.

The network would have to be decentralized so that the bad guys can't seize records and waterboard all the members. If they used violence against one or two of the members, it must not reveal the other members...

I would like to see a P2P architecture to facilitate trading "credits" similar to the way BitTorrent/Azeureus works. I am even good with "electronic money" as long as:

a) Banks can't create it out of thin air
b) Government can't print it.
c) Obviously, it can't be counterfieted and players in the market would trust it.
d) The bad guys can't spy on it.

In the physical world, silver and especially gold fit that mold. In the digital world, we might use tokens that have some sort of unbreakable cryptography applied to it.

Crazy ramblings? Or the start of an idea? Not sure yet. Thought I would throw it out there...

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Maybe that is what we should be doing ARP (After Ron Paul). If RP does not become the nominee, we should hope for the WORST possible candidate to be elected. Would you want the economy to tank quickly or tank slowly?

I realize that I might be flamed out for this, but shouldn't we be focusing on creating an agorist network of partners, trading part time outside of the taxation system, and using sound money with each other? I.e. Create a true free market? If we don't have RP, isn't voting pointless? I'll bet you that if we DID have a 0% turnout at the polls, that would send the statists scurrying in fear...well, assuming that MSM reported it. They probably would make up numbers rather than report a 0% turnout.

That way, when things DO fall over, we will still have our network. The trick is in "the how" to get started.

The network would have to be decentralized so that the bad guys can't seize records and waterboard all the members.

I would like to see a P2P architecture to facilitate trading "credits" similar to the way BitTorrent/Azeureus works. I am even good with "electronic money" as long as:

a) Banks can't create it out of thin air
b) Government can't print it.
c) Obviously, it can't be counterfieted and players in the market would trust it.

In the physical world, silver and especially gold fit that mold. In the digital world, we might use tokens that have some sort of unbreakable cryptography applied to it.

Crazy ramblings? Or the start of an idea? Not sure yet. Thought I would throw it out there...

Sounds incredible interesting. I'd like to see more debate on P2P credits.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Sounds incredible interesting. I'd like to see more debate on P2P credits.

http://www.cooperationcommons.com/c...lrose/142-p2p-international-currency-exchange

 

[Matt Collins]

I'm getting ready to draft my letter on this subject... any other thoughts?

 

[Tarzan]

I'm getting ready to draft my letter on this subject... any other thoughts?

Tell him... if he is trying to pick a winner go to the horse track... or dog track since it is florida.
If he is interested in "hiring" a president to pick the best candidate, regardless of their chance of winning. Until we can all make that jump (and vote for someone truly qualified and worthy of the position) we will continue to end up with the string of losers we continue to put in the white house... (and congress).

Since he is in Florida... tell him to vote for McCain or BO... but to only push lightly and be sure to leave a hanging chad.

Or, tell him to vote for Barr or Baldwin... then he can wear a shirt for the next four (or eight) years saying "don't blame me... I voted for some other guy".

 

[matterweisen]

voting for the lesser of two evils, is still voting for evil. if you dont vote for who you think should be president (whether or not they have a chance), you dont deserve to vote.

 

[MikeStanart]

I will be writing in Paul, or leaving "President" BLANK ( i'm contemplating Bob Barr)

I'm kind of hesitant on voting 3rd party, because I do not want to encourage Liberty-minded people to join another party instead of Changing the Republican Party!!!

That being said; I will probably leave "President" BLANK...and vote for whoever is the best candidates for the rest.

 

[Kalifornia]

Just tell him he is an idiot, and move on with your life.