Left Libertarian: A Tradition That Champions Equality and Social Justice

[oyarde]

Personally I doubt there are unique left libertarian views .

 

[jmdrake]

New political compass just dropped

Interesting. More than one way to look at it. Individuals verses groups. (Spider and sloth vs wolf pack and gazelle herd). Predator vs prey. (Spider and wolf vs gazelle and sloth). Each has it's own survival instinct. The sloth is like the donkey character in Animal Farm. He represented the intellectuals who survived communism by trying to go unnoticed. Some sloths live in trees inhabited by viscous ants who will attack devour anything that gets on the tree but leaves the sloths alone because they mistake the slow moving sloths for part of the tree.

Personally, I prefer the musk ox. Not a predator, but no easy prey. Weak in the center of the protective circle.

 

[jmdrake]

[MENTION=849]jmdrake[/MENTION]

I see your point...mine was not so much as to "equalize" past oppression, but merely to point out that any ethnic group can find itself on the short end of the government stick.

As to the larger problem of inter ethnic race relations, I have nothing else to offer.

I think the problem is so broken and so much distrust and hatred on each side (seems like every day goes by now that some black supremacist professor is on some campus hollering for my extermination) that there is no solution but separation.

As long as you get all the Ezra Miller's of the world you get no argument from me.

 

[Anti Federalist]

As long as you get all the Ezra Miller's of the world you get no argument from me.

Ugh...fair is fair however.

I'll deal with the Ezras but you have to take all the Justines.

 

[Anti Federalist]

 

[Anti Federalist]

Straw man argument. I never said the founders created slavery. The false claim that anyone telling the truth about how slavery was intertwined in U.S. history is somehow attacking the founders is a right wing "race hustle."

But they are...attacking the founders and the entire nation, its founding history and its core documents and its philosophy as nothing more than "racist trash".

And they base their arguments on the fact that antebellum America had chattel slavery embedded as law and part of the structure and its society.

That fact is not questionable...although I wish with all heart and soul that it never had. But, as you mentioned, technology moved on...Europeans became to the first peoples on the planet to successfully and repeatedly manage global marine transportation and navigation.

This is critical. Many cultures managed to go to sea, from Romans to Greeks to Chinese to Vikings and Polynesians. But ancient navigation was an entirely "hit or miss" coastal trade affair, usually never out of sight of land for any great length of time. It was the Portuguese and Spaniards and French and Dutch and in particular the British and their navy, that managed to make high seas, oceanic, marine navigation reliable, accurate and repeatable meaning the use of accurate charts, soundings and precise celestial navigation to return to a location or port, on the other side of the world, again and again.

And of course, what are they going to carry in the hulls of these vessels that now can return on time and follow regular trade routes and schedules, but things of value?

And in the North Atlantic, for 400 years or more, those items of value were distilled spirits...rum, which when you think about it, is to sugar cane what crack is to coca leaves, tobacco, sugar, salt cod and slaves.

So yes, there is no denying that slavery was intertwined in the history of North America.

That is not the question.

The question is: do we throw away 2000 years of history, The Five Thousand Year Leap, do we deconstruct and tear down the entire canon of Western Civilization, because of the never ending black fury and black anger and dimwitted white guilt over the fact that chattel slavery was an integral part of the history of America?

Because make no mistake, that is what these Marxist revolutionists and neo-Jacobins are after.

The utter and total annihilation of the West and everything it stands for, including such fusty old ideals like "the Rights of Man" and individual liberty and government from the bottom up instead of top down, representatives instead of rulers, Bills of Rights, faith in an omnipotent God, family, children, thrift, education, and so on and on and on.

I do not want to live in their world, that is not securing the blessings of liberty for my posterity, it is, in fact, a nightmare.

Other than a peaceful separation, I can see no other course or outcome other than a bloody internal war, which will probably be dealt with by our oppressors with the release of the REAL gain of function bio engineered plague, and just killing off 90 percent of all of us.

Because no matter what those same dimwitted guilty whites bring to the table, it will never, ever be enough.

No amount of reparations or government handouts or 40 acres and mules is going to be enough.

Because again, the people that are running this shitshow do not give one frog's fat ass of concern about the well being of your average black person.

Look at what their policies have wrought...they have destroyed the black family, they have decimated your black men, they turn a blind eye towards the violence they themselves enabled...for fuck's sake, there's a Uvalde shooting death toll every fucking weekend in Chicago.

[MENTION=849]jmdrake[/MENTION] and I know you know all this...I'm just ranting in the wind, so that maybe my digital dust will be noted some day in the distant future.

 

[ClaytonB]

But they are...attacking the founders and the entire nation, its founding history and its core documents and its philosophy as nothing more than "racist trash".

And they base their arguments on the fact that antebellum America had chattel slavery embedded as law and part of the structure and its society.

That fact is not questionable...although I wish with all heart and soul that it never had. But, as you mentioned, technology moved on...Europeans became to the first peoples on the planet to successfully and repeatedly manage global marine transportation and navigation.

This is critical. Many cultures managed to go to sea, from Romans to Greeks to Chinese to Vikings and Polynesians. But ancient navigation was an entirely "hit or miss" coastal trade affair, usually never out of sight of land for any great length of time. It was the Portuguese and Spaniards and French and Dutch and in particular the British and their navy, that managed to make high seas, oceanic, marine navigation reliable, accurate and repeatable meaning the use of accurate charts, soundings and precise celestial navigation to return to a location or port, on the other side of the world, again and again.

And of course, what are they going to carry in the hulls of these vessels that now can return on time and follow regular trade routes and schedules, but things of value?

And in the North Atlantic, for 400 years or more, those items of value were distilled spirits...rum, which when you think about it, is to sugar cane what crack is to coca leaves, tobacco, sugar, salt cod and slaves.

So yes, there is no denying that slavery was intertwined in the history of North America.

That is not the question.

The question is: do we throw away 2000 years of history, The Five Thousand Year Leap, do we deconstruct and tear down the entire canon of Western Civilization, because of the never ending black fury and black anger and dimwitted white guilt over the fact that chattel slavery was an integral part of the history of America?

Because make no mistake, that is what these Marxist revolutionists and neo-Jacobins are after.

The utter and total annihilation of the West and everything it stands for, including such fusty old ideals like "the Rights of Man" and individual liberty and government from the bottom up instead of top down, representatives instead of rulers, Bills of Rights, faith in an omnipotent God, family, children, thrift, education, and so on and on and on.

I do not want to live in their world, that is not securing the blessings of liberty for my posterity, it is, in fact, a nightmare.

Other than a peaceful separation, I can see no other course or outcome other than a bloody internal war, which will probably be dealt with by our oppressors with the release of the REAL gain of function bio engineered plague, and just killing off 90 percent of all of us.

Because no matter what those same dimwitted guilty whites bring to the table, it will never, ever be enough.

No amount of reparations or government handouts or 40 acres and mules is going to be enough.

Because again, the people that are running this $#@!show do not give one frog's fat ass of concern about the well being of your average black person.

Look at what their policies have wrought...they have destroyed the black family, they have decimated your black men, they turn a blind eye towards the violence they themselves enabled...for $#@!'s sake, there's a Uvalde shooting death toll every $#@!ing weekend in Chicago.

[MENTION=849]jmdrake[/MENTION] and I know you know all this...I'm just ranting in the wind, so that maybe my digital dust will be noted some day in the distant future.

The real crime of the United States is not that we had slavery -- every nation had slavery when the US was founded -- but, rather, that we abolished slavery, not just in word, but in deed. The abolition movement begin in England and spread to the US and basically the entire sphere of Christendom, broadly conceived. John 8:36 -- "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!" Galatians 3:28 -- "There is neither ... slave nor free ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The Gospel is the Exodus made universal. It is the escape from Egyptian slavery but, this time, the Israelites are all who choose to believe in Jesus and join in the escape, and the Egyptian slavers are the invisible spiritual rulers of this world. Revolutions they can accept. National independence they can tolerate. Civil war, rebellion, insurrection.... all just part of life. But throwing down the gauntlet and making a universal challenge against human slavery, as such, and backing it up with action... that's unforgivable. It's an act of war, ultimate war. And so we skid ever faster down the slope into the real Armageddon...





"Who gets blamed for the practice of slavery? ... The people who first outlawed it, who first put a stop to are the ones who are blamed for inventing it." <-- THIS

 

[Swordsmyth]

There can be no alliances with people who think that.

Hard stop.

^^^THIS^^^

 

[Swordsmyth]

Personally I doubt there are unique left libertarian views .

The only principle that leftarians have is that they should be allowed to indulge whatever vices and crimes appeal to them.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Relevant to this thread. Dave Smith has a hypothesis that much of the hyper social justice attitude is generational. In other words, older libertarians may come from a time (or region) that had real institutionalized discrimination, while younger libertarians as represented by the Mises Caucus don't have that background. As I have said, to them it is historical, but not relatable to anything they experienced or saw in their lives. I would add to Dave Smith’s take that it would also be a regional phenomenon. A person from the south would be much more likely to have witnessed this than someone in California or New York.

So an older libertarian is more likely to do anything and everything to avoid being called names, including being SJWs themselves and virtue signaling, while younger libertarians are not as sensitized. As a matter if fact, I would also add to Smith’s idea here that younger people have seen the opposite. They see social justice as being institutionalized, and being used by the state and it’s minions as a way to unfairly attack people. If anything is “systemic” today, it is wokeism and social justice warrioring.

A Response To The S.P.L.C - Part Of The Problem 882
On this episode of Part Of The Problem, Dave responds to an article by the Southern Poverty Law Center accusing the Libertarian Party and Freedom Fest of being harbors of extremists and radicals. This Episode Was Recorded On 7.17.22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF68d1-zXCM

 

[ClaytonB]

So an older libertarian is more likely to do anything and everything to avoid being called names, including being SJWs themselves and virtue signaling, while younger libertarians are not as sensitized. As a matter if fact, I would also add to Smith’s idea here that younger people have seen the opposite. They see social justice as being institutionalized, and being used by the state and it’s minions as a way to unfairly attack people. If anything is “systemic” today, it is wokeism and social justice warrioring.

Great insight. I resent being called any kind of "-ist" because it's (a) it's false and (b) it's a dangerous insult that can have IRL repercussions, including losing your job or even becoming unemployable, especially nowadays with the permanent LinkedIn/Facebook record of everything you have ever done by machines that can never forget. However, I certainly don't care about the insult in the sense that I consider it to be nothing more than a tactical move made by an opponent whenever they are losing the argument and want a quick and easy escape. It's the debate equivalent of throwing marbles on the floor. I wouldn't get up in arms about being called an "-ist" label because only a total lowlife throws that kind of insult without an actual cause... and I don't value the opinions of lowlifes. I don't think the older generation (older than millenial) is the same in that respect. I think many of them take it very personally and not just because of the potential IRL repercussions, but for some other reason. It's more like calling someone from the WWII generation a son-of-a-b!tch... those were out-and-out fighting words, not an insult-of-affection between "homies".

 

[ClaytonB]

The only principle that leftarians have is that they should be allowed to indulge whatever vices and crimes appeal to them.

This is not correct. There are some left-libertarians who are carrying on the mantle of bohemian classical liberalism, and they are just libertines who try to justify their dog-like morals with sophistry. However, these are not the only kind of left-libertarians, nor do I think they represent what left-libertarianism can become, that is, its potential.

Conservative libertarianism is incomplete. It is like traditional Protestantism -- doctrinally unassailable, academically dense, thoroughly reasoned, but bleak, bare, sparse and with all the charm of a funeral service. It is clearly lacking something. It lacks vibrancy and life. And that lack is not just a "detail" that can be "addressed" later on... it's the flaw of the liberty movement, it is how the R/D mono-party establishment is able to trample liberty, year and year, decade after decade.

Until conservatives are honest with themselves about what they lack, the status quo will continue unchanged. The broad mass of the public will never build up around a movement that has the joie de vivre of a small-town museum on a Tuesday morning. Conservative liberty-lovers have mind. They have facts. But left-leaning liberty-lovers have something they lack: heart and the love of life. Both sides can go on in denial indefinitely, of course. And liberty can also be trampled indefinitely, and that is precisely what will continue to happen until conservative liberty-lovers give up their egos, get off their "I TOLD YOU SO" high-horses, and start making friends with people who also love liberty, but from a different starting-point and for different reasons.

Even some participants on this forum are rural snobs who openly fantasize about the devastation of cities, which are the backbone of the modern world. Way to go, doing the heavy-lifting of the enemies of liberty who seek to suppress human freedom by keeping those who cherish it, divided and at each other's throats. I am happy to hold hands with someone with left/socialist tendencies as long as they are not insidious. Most of them are not insidious leftists and many of them are deeply grieved by the very same tyranny that is oppressing those of us who are conservative liberty-lovers. But if you can't see past your blue-jeans and pickup-trucks, you're never going to reach across that aisle and find the common-ground you really do have with left-leaning liberty-lovers. And many of them would come out of the coma of socialism if somebody just bothered to explain a few basic facts of economics to them. Not all of them, but many of them. But we don't even try because "Ew, they're leftists!"

 

[unknown]

Couldn't get past the first 2 paragraphs.

Although not sure how to solve the issue of privitazing everything into the hands of the same few groups who already own or control everything.