Khelif files complaint for online harassment

[Voluntarist]

I had originally posted this to the "The Queeerest Olympics Ever!" thread, but realized it probably fit better into it's own thread. So I started one.

Bringing it to your attention if you haven't already seen it. I don't suppose anyone here has anything to worry about w/r to legal action, but I suspect people who have an audience (like JK Rowling and Elon Musk) might. The legal action raises some questions:
- Are internet posters responsible (ethically, legally) for what they post/spread on the internet?
- Do internet posters need to substantiate what they're going to post before they actually post it?
- Do internet posters have to produce proof of what they're accusing someone of, or is it the accused's responsibility to prove the accusation false?
- Are message boards complicit in what their members post?

Gender row Olympic boxing champion Khelif files complaint for online harassment

Paris Olympics boxing champion Imane Khelif, the Algerian at the centre of a gender eligibility row, has filed a legal complaint in France for online harassment, her lawyer said Saturday.

"The boxer Imane Khelif has decided to begin a new fight, a fight for justice, dignity and honour," Nabil Boudi said in a statement, saying Khelif had filed the complaint for "aggravated online harassment... to Paris prosecutors".

He added: "The investigation will determine who was behind this misogynist, racist and sexist campaign, but will also have to concern itself with those who fed the online lynching."

The "iniquitous harassment" the boxing champion had been subjected to would remain "the biggest stain on these Olympic Games", said Boudi.
...
On Friday, after her victory, Khelif said the gold medal she had won was the best response to her critics.

Asked by reporters about the row over her eligibility, she said: "I am fully qualified to take part, I am a woman like any other. I was born a woman, lived a woman and competed as a woman."

 

[ClaytonB]

I don't suppose anyone here has anything to worry about

Damn right we don't...

 

[Anti Globalist]

These complaint lawsuits will eventually turn into defamation lawsuits.

 

[Voluntarist]

These complaint lawsuits will eventually turn into defamation lawsuits.

There's already a cottage industry developing with respect to internet defamation (see law firm here, for example). It's a target rich environment. Small time websites probably don't have much to worry about; but high-traffic sites or sites and individuals with heavy traffic will probably be singled out. And anyone with deep pockets would be well advised to be as bland in their internet posting as possible.

 

[ClaytonB]

There's already a cottage industry developing with respect to internet defamation see law firm here, for example). It's a target rich environment. Small time websites probably don't have much to worry about; but high-traffic sites or sites and individuals with heavy traffic will probably be singled out. And anyone with deep pockets would be well advised to be as bland in their internet posting as possible.

The right to free speech, like the right to bear arms, is from God. No government and no court can give those rights, nor take them away. Yes, they can inflict arbitrary and lawless punishments, but they cannot take away the rights that God has given. They simply don't have the authority to do such things...

 

[acptulsa]

In the U.S, the right to free speech about politics is absolute. That's why the government is hiding behind "private enterprises". DARPA invents Facebook, the CIA finances it, Zuckerberg is given credit because he's sociopathic and presumably blackmailable somehow, and besides his name sounds Jewish. And because DARPA and the CIA don't tell anyone Facebook was created, launched and promoted by them, Zucker gets away with hiring entire armies to censor political speech. Not on "my property".

This is the same thing. Politics injects something in the Olympics which has never been there before, and which fits the current political agenda so perfectly it's clearly a part if it. Then they terrorize through lawfare political pundits when they talk about it as freely as they talk about any other political thing.

 

[ClaytonB]

... his name sounds Jewish...

Bingo! You win the Internet today, sir! How easily the masses are led astray and duped into (partly) baseless animosity...

 

[Invisible Man]

- Are internet posters responsible (ethically, legally) for what they post/spread on the internet?

I don't know about legally, but ethically, yes.

- Do internet posters need to substantiate what they're going to post before they actually post it?

They absolutely should do that. To post lies about someone is to lie. It is absolutely unethical.

Such a lie could be one of two types: 1. It could be deliberately asserting something you know is false. 2. It could be falsely representing yourself as enough of an expert on something to have the requisite knowledge to be a reliable source for the facts of the case, when in reality you're a hack, and you're just uncritically passing on something you saw someone else post, without having a clue what you're talking about.

Lies of type 2 are still lies.

- Do internet posters have to produce proof of what they're accusing someone of, or is it the accused's responsibility to prove the accusation false?

Internet posters should have good reason to believe what they asserted. Proof can come in varying degrees. And it's possible to do one's due diligence and still be wrong. When more facts come out that cause a person to realize they have done this, they should apologize and retract their false claim.

- Are message boards complicit in what their members post?

Generally no. But they could be if they promote certain things and silence others. If they promote lies and silence truth, then they are complicit in that.

 

[ClaytonB]

Leaked medical report ‘proves Imane Khelif is biological male’

What a shocker. In other news, leaked mechanic's report proves that this is not a minivan:

Shocking, I know...

 

[Voluntarist]

Leaked medical report ‘proves Imane Khelif is biological male’

What did the report say about the SRY gene (doesn't seem like the article mentioned it)? If you don't have it, you're going to develop as female even if you have an XY chromosome configuration (you won't have testes, but will will probably have, which probably won't produce eggs). Has there been any explanation for why she was identified as female at birth (which is typically the case when there is a vagina rather than a penis)? Shocking, I know.

My contention has been that she's physiologically female (as identified at birth) but probably has an intersex condition (a 1 in 80,000 occurrence). Basically, she's one of the individuals that doesn't fit neatly into the binary sex paradigm.

 

[ClaytonB]

What did the report say about the SRY gene (the leaked report didn't say)? Has there been any explanation for why she was identified as female at birth (which is typically the case when there is a vagina rather than a penis)?

The presence of mixed sexual features is nothing new, it has affected a small percentage of humans going way back. No matter what condition Khelif has or doesn't have, they are visually identifiably male, particularly in respect to the upper-body strength which makes male boxers able to hit incomparably harder than female boxers, pound-for-pound. Khelif loves boxing, and that's OK. But Khelif cannot be allowed to compete in women's boxing. If they identify as female for whatever reason, I don't think they should be allowed to fight competitively in men's boxing, either. Is that disappointing for someone who is what Khelif claims to be? Sure, I would imagine that is disappointing for them. We all have disappointments, but our personal feelings of disappointment do not give us a permission-slip to batter actual women in a boxing ring.

 

[Voluntarist]

The presence of mixed sexual features is nothing new, it has affected a small percentage of humans going way back. No matter what condition Khelif has or doesn't have, they are visually identifiably male, particularly in respect to the upper-body strength which makes male boxers able to hit incomparably harder than female boxers, pound-for-pound. Khelif loves boxing, and that's OK. But Khelif cannot be allowed to compete in women's boxing. If they identify as female for whatever reason, I don't think they should be allowed to fight competitively in men's boxing, either. Is that disappointing for someone who is what Khelif claims to be? Sure, I would imagine that is disappointing for them. We all have disappointments, but our personal feelings of disappointment do not give us a permission-slip to batter actual women in a boxing ring.

It's just difficult for me to say that someone with a vagina, uterus and ovaries (even non-functioning ones) isn't female. And if XY chromosomes are the determining factor for "maleness", then you're going to have to accept there are going to be some males who can give birth (there have been cases where XY individuals with Swyer Syndrome have been able to carry a child to term with donated eggs and hormone replacement therapy).

And upper body strength (or musculature in general) is a very subjective discriminator. Not one I'd want to use in an objective sense. As a 175 pound guy, I certainly wouldn't want to see Ilona Maher barreling down at me on a rugby pitch. The Olympics have tried to get a working paradigm on what's acceptable for women by using testosterone levels, but that's imperfect also (you'd have to monitor female athletes from birth, since a burst of testosterone during a developmental phase could skew success going forward - whether they're XX or XY). And it's not like Khelif is undefeated, if I'm reading her record correctly, she's had 51 bouts and lost 9 of them.

 

[ClaytonB]

It's just difficult for me to say that someone with a vagina, uterus and ovaries (even non-functioning ones) isn't female.

Life sucks. The solution is to believe in Jesus and get eternal life... in the next world all of this crap is going to be gone and we will be living in God's harmonious order.

And if XY chromosomes are the determining factor for "maleness", then you're going to have to accept there are going to be some males who can give birth (there have been cases where XY individuals with Swyer Syndrome have been able to carry a child to term with donated eggs and hormone replacement therapy).

This is not the kind of issue that causes me to lose any sleep at night. This issue has been around since ancient times, and the traditional solution is that the parents, possibly with advice from a priest, simply assigned the most suitable sex. In adulthood, if the aberrant features would cause a "wedding night surprise", then the individual would be a eunuch. We do not understand all of God's ways but he absolutely has his reasons for everything that comes to pass and, in time, he will explain what we need to know.

None of that leaves any room for a person who is visibly identifiably male (regardless of aberrant features) to be beating the shit out of female boxers. It's ludicrous.

And upper body strength (or musculature in general) is a very subjective discriminator.

There's absolutely nothing subjective about the pounds force with which Khelif can strike versus any female boxer. He/she/whatever can hit with absolutely incomparable force, pound-for-pound, because that's what makes male different from female. I'm an out of weight middle aged guy and I could hit any of those female boxers hard enough to make them cry, just like Khelif did. They are athletes and they are competitive in their class, but male and female are not even slightly comparable. One edge-case doesn't undo the Universe, that's not how reality works. Well, it's how Clown World works, but it's not how the real world works. Some day, soon, Clown World will be shown its exit. Then we will return to reality.

I certainly wouldn't want to see Ilona Maher barreling down at me on a rugby pitch

Rather her any day to a 175 pound NFL player in peak physical shape. But you do you...