Keystone Pipeline

[erowe1]

I'd say in the free market, the refinery would be built by the source, as the pipeline would not be economically feasible.
then the refined products could be shipped to their destination.

Is there some anti-free market impediment right now that stops them from doing that?

 

[Zippyjuan]

I'm relaxed. But I still don't get what you're saying. Were you not saying that you support Obama in stopping them from building it? Or were you just saying that, in your expert opinion, you think they're making a bad investment, but they should still be allowed to make it?

Just saying I don't think the pipeline is a good idea.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

What makes you think that?

Very limited experience, hearing people talk about it. It's framed as a pro-business vs. pro-environment issue. I'm talking about regular folks, of course, not power players. The bigwigs who support it have their own reasons for supporting it -- no doubt self-interested ones, and no doubt ones largely unrelated to the publicly stated reasons. That's just politics.

Now whether it should be framed as it is -- business vs. environment -- is dubious. But that is the perception; that is the narrative. You may decide the best course when talking about this issue would be to back up and explain, not your position on the issue at first, but rather why the entire way that they think about the issue is flawed. In other words, convince them to throw out the narrative they know, to toss the entire framework, and instead accept an entirely different Keystone narrative and then base their Keystone opinion upon that. Probably the new narrative would have to do with private property rights vs. (stealing for) the common good.

 

[torchbearer]

Is there some anti-free market impediment right now that stops them from doing that?

I don't know for certain, but I assumed there was a huge amount of regulation/red tape to developing new refineries.. and that is why we haven't gotten any new refineries in a long time.

 

[Danke]

I don't know for certain, but I assumed there was a huge amount of regulation/red tape to developing new refineries.. and that is why we haven't gotten any new refineries in a long time.

Plus, haven't they been shutting down a lot of refineries?

I'm sure there are some eminent domain issues, but you'd think with all the public land and railroad tracks, they could minimize that.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Or perhaps you could take this rhetorical position:

"Why should whether or not to build a pipe even be a political issue?
Should it be a political issue where McDonalds puts its next drive-through?
Should it be a political issue whether or not I hire a new employee?
Should it be a political issue what kind of filament I put in the light bulbs produce?
Should it be a political issue whether or not I brush my teeth, and where?
What about what kind of toothpaste I use?
Should every single decision we make as business owners, as workers, as consumers, as human beings!, be a national political issue? Do we really want the geniuses in Congress micromanaging our energy along with everything else?

 

[torchbearer]

Plus, haven't they been shutting down a lot of refineries?

I'm sure there are some eminent domain issues, but you'd think with all the public land and railroad tracks, they could minimize that.

not sure, i don't think any of the refineries in louisiana have shut down. i think one was closed because of an explosion, but was re-opened once repaired.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Is there some anti-free market impediment right now that stops them from doing that?

Yes. Building a new refinery is very difficult due to government regulations (aided by crony corporatists) and NIMBY politics.

 

[erowe1]

Or perhaps you could take this rhetorical position:

"Why should whether or not to build a pipe even be a political issue?
Should it be a political issue where McDonalds puts its next drive-through?
Should it be a political issue whether or not I hire a new employee?
Should it be a political issue what kind of filament I put in the light bulbs produce?
Should it be a political issue whether or not I brush my teeth, and where?
What about what kind of toothpaste I use?
Should every single decision we make as business owners, as workers, as consumers, as human beings!, be a national political issue? Do we really want the geniuses in Congress micromanaging our energy along with everything else?

Answer: Because they have to get federal permits to build this pipeline, and Obama is not giving them to them.

 

[erowe1]

Yes. Building a new refinery is pretty much impossible due to government regulations (aided by crony corporatists) and NIMBY politics.

What about all the refineries that already exist all over America and Canada?

 

[Danke]

not sure, i don't think any of the refineries in louisiana have shut down. i think one was closed because of an explosion, but was re-opened once repaired.

Just looked it up:

"Over the last quarter-century, the number of refineries in the United States dropped to 149, less than half the number in 1981. Because companies have upgraded and expanded their aging operations, refining capacity during that time period shrank only 10 percent from its peak of 18.6 million barrels a day. At the same time, gasoline consumption has risen by 45 percent."

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12227

 

[Zippyjuan]

Related article from Canada: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/23/canada-oil-refineries_n_1539701.html

Why Aren't We Building Refineries In Canada? Because It's Too Late, Experts Say

Ian MacGregor stands at the centre of the growing disconnect between Canada’s booming oil production and its lack of refineries and upgraders.

As chairman of Calgary-based North West Upgrading (NWU), he’s overseeing construction of a $5-billion oil sands upgrader outside of Edmonton that will process 55,000 barrels of bitumen per day in partnership with Canadian Natural Resources (CNR) and the Alberta government, converting heavy crude into diesel fuel for the Canadian market.

Slated to come online in 2015, the project already employs 1,000, a number that is set to grow to 8,000 at the peak of construction -- which, as MacGregor sees it, is proof that more Canadian oil can and should be processed here.

“Our kids want to work in high-tech industries. They don’t want to work with their hands,” MacGregor said. “They want to have educationally and intellectually based jobs, and that’s what we produce when we refine this stuff.”

Getting into the petroleum processing business would seem a no-brainer considering Canadian crude oil production is expected to nearly double to as much as 4.7 million barrels per day by 2025. Moreover, TransCanada’s proposed Keystone XL pipeline from the oil sands to U.S. Gulf Coast refineries is still mired in controversy, oil sands producers offload Canadian crude to foreign refiners at a discount, and eastern provinces are importing more expensive Atlantic basin oil.

Yet as Canada’s oil production takes off, the refining industry has flatlined and projects like MacGregor’s are a rarity, which prompts one very vexing question: As Canada produces more oil than ever before, why aren’t we building more refineries and upgraders here?

Some say the explanation is primarily economic. To others, it’s a matter of politics. But either way, it’s clear that Canada hasn’t been a serious player in the refining game for some time. And because of the increasing complexity of the forces shaping the global oil industry -- and a lack of will on the part of government and industry to do so -- it has only become more challenging to enter that domain.

Over the past few decades, the refining industry has undergone a major restructuring in North America, with business increasingly concentrated in the hands of major oil companies, primarily south of the border.

Since the 1970s, the number of refineries in Canada has plummeted from 40 to 19, taking a big bite out of the direct refinery labour force, which dropped from 27,400 to 17,500 between 1989 and 2009. There hasn’t been a new refinery built in Canada since 1984, or in the U.S. since 1976. (The NWU project is not technically classed as a refinery because it is upgrading bitumen directly to diesel as opposed to producing light crude, but MacGregor and others consider it to be the first major ground-up refining project undertaken in Canada in 25 years.)

While expansions to existing facilities have enabled Canada’s overall refining capacity to increase, a recent Conference Board of Canada report observed that annual growth output has declined for the last five of six years. At the moment, more oil is refined here than is consumed. But while Canada currently imports 0.7 million barrels of crude oil per day, we only refine about 25 per cent of the oil produced here.

More at link.

Another possible reason for not building more refineries is that it would increase the supply of oil products which would lower their price.

 

[Seraphim]

AFAIK a lot of the oil sent down would be consumed by Americans in the Gulf region.

i had a farm and i know i would not want it going thru my land .

there is no way this is going to help america except for the short time jobs to build it . once the oil ( if thats what people call it ) gets to texas refinery the products will be shipped over seas .

the price we pay for gasoline will go up at least 50c a gallon because the refineries will be doing the tar sands then shiping it overseas .

if it was such a great deal for america why don't they build refineries up north .

more than anything i want america to get off arab oil and getting gi's killed over it . natural gas is our only near term answer .

 

[torchbearer]

AFAIK a lot of the oil sent down would be consumed by Americans in the Gulf region.

we have plenty already. we refine a good bit of petro here. more than we need.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

What about all the refineries that already exist all over America and Canada?

They can and do add capacity, mainly at the port refineries in TX and LA. Convenient for exporting, but it requires moving the oil there before you can refine it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

It's already been partially built. ED has already been used. This has already been talked about on RPFs before.

And...it's already leaking all over the place.

 

[Zippyjuan]

we have plenty already. we refine a good bit of petro here. more than we need.

If I recall correctly, the US is the largest EXPORTER of refined oil products in the world. Part of that is because we are one of the few places which can handle heavier oils like those in the Canadian tar sands and Venezuela (we refine a significant portion of their oil for them and ship it back).

 

[PRB]

It's about allowing a private developer too.

But of course it's not that simple. It's a huge project running North-South through the country, so obviously government would be heavily involved, including seizing a lot of peoples' property by eminent domain most likely.

I would love to see which pro oil republican would be for eminent domain

 

[TaftFan]

Sure would be a shame to let China get it when Canada loses patience.

On the bright side, it looks like it will be approved.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Tar Sands are not standard oil. When we put Arsenic and ph's together the carcinogenic effects increase almost 20 times.

I don't know, folks. I'll say this much, I'm really starting to become a fan of the logic scribbled in those Georgia Guidstones. People are fuggin dangerous to humanity itself. Especially greedy people. People who, in the billions and billions of years the Earth has existed, occupy it for merely a fragment of a hundred years and yet go out of their way to destroy and kill for some personal gain during their very short yet pathetic occupancy here.