Joe Rogan Experience #2303 - Dave Smith & Douglas Murray

[nikcers]

Since when did proof matter?

Is that the standard we should be using?

Because there sure as shit was never any proof that the elections were rigged.

Your claim that the "Ukrainians found evidence" would be a lot more convincing, if the claims that the election were rigged, were not originated and funded by the US government.

There is proof. Indirect proof is still proof.

Even Kazakhstan doesn't recognize Russia's annexing of Ukraine.

 

[TheTexan]

There is proof. Indirect proof is still proof.

There's shitloads of proof that the US instigated and helped orchestrate the Orange Revolution.

There's basically no proof that Russia rigged the election, direct, indirect, or otherwise.

Even Kazakhstan doesn't recognize Russia's annexing of Ukraine.

I can't say I really care what Kazakhstan thinks. Most people think the Ukrainians are heroes fighting for their country and everyone who thinks that is a moron.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

If you remember, at the time, both Ukraine and Russia were friendly with NATO.

Vladimir Putin himself even went to Texas and met with our president George Bush.

Russia were part of the G8. Germany was buying more and more energy from Russia which was making Russia and Germany rich.

It was only after Russia tried to topple Ukraines government that George Bush said well why doesn't Ukraine just join NATO.

Fantasyland. Who do you think you are fooling? The neocons have had their sights on Russia ever since they had to flee Stalin. Victoria Nuland was there the whole time with GWB, with all of the other neocons, plotting against Russia.

"From 2003 to 2005, Nuland served as the principal Deputy National Security Adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney, exercising an influential role during the Iraq War. From 2005 to 2008, during President George W. Bush's second term, Nuland served as U.S. ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, where she concentrated on mobilizing European support for the NATO intervention in Afghanistan."

 

[nikcers]

There's shitloads of proof that the US instigated and helped orchestrate the Orange Revolution.

There's basically no proof that Russia rigged the election, direct, indirect, or otherwise.




I can't say I really care what Kazakhstan thinks. Most people think the Ukrainians are heroes fighting for their country and everyone who thinks that is a moron.

Life is more complex than good or bad.

The Soviet Union were the bad guys in World War 2, but FDR whitewashed their atrocities and called him Uncle Joe because if the Axis defeated the Soviet Union the balance of power wouldn't have worked out in our favor.

Indirect evidence from multiple and independent sources is still proof though.

 

[TheTexan]

Indirect evidence from multiple and independent sources is still proof though.

I'm still waiting for any links to this "evidence" from "independent sources"

 

[nikcers]

I'm still waiting for any links to this "evidence" from "independent sources"

Look, you already have independent sources supporting a contrasting opinion. You just keep saying I don't care about that source. You have the Ukrainians in Ukraine and Kazakhstan supporting one argument.

Then you have the Russian's supporting the counter argument. The Russians being the most to gain from their argument. They are the ones demanding all of the resources from the region of Ukraine.

 

[TheTexan]

Look, you already have independent sources supporting a contrasting opinion. You just keep saying I don't care about that source. You have the Ukrainians in Ukraine and Kazakhstan supporting one argument.

I was kinda hoping you had actual evidence to back up your argument that you hadn't referenced yet.

If "Kazakhstan's opinion" is pretty much the basis of your indirect evidence, we can end this discussion here lol.

Then you have the Russian's supporting the counter argument. The Russians being the most to gain from their argument. They are the ones demanding all of the resources from the region of Ukraine.

I don't think the US ever made any secret of their interference in Ukraine's politics. They certainly didn't make much attempt to hide it in 2014 either. There is direct evidence contrary to your position, and you're ignoring it, in favor of "Kazakhstan's opinion".

 

[nikcers]

I was kinda hoping you had actual evidence to back up your argument that you hadn't referenced yet.

If "Kazakhstan's opinion" is pretty much the basis of your indirect evidence, we can end this discussion here lol.



I don't think the US ever made any secret of their interference in Ukraine's politics. They certainly didn't make much attempt to hide it in 2014 either. There is direct evidence contrary to your position, and you're ignoring it, in favor of "Kazakhstan's opinion".

Indirect evidence is good enough for the court of law.

 

[TheTexan]

Indirect evidence is good enough for the court of law.

LOL jesus.

Prosecution: "I have evidence that this dude over here thinks that this dude is guilty".

Judge: "Good enough for me. Guilty!!"

 

[nikcers]

LOL jesus.

Prosecution: "I have evidence that this dude over here thinks that this dude is guilty".

Judge: "Good enough for me. Guilty!!"

Indirect evidence, also known as circumstantial evidence, is evidence that doesn't directly prove a fact but allows a reasonable person to infer that fact.

Russia's original argument for invading was debatable.


They invaded because they said they had a special military operation because Ukraine was tyrannical.


As you have said before and argued democracy can be tyrannical. So it's atleast a debateable argument.

As John Adams said there hasn't been a democracy yet that hasn't committed suicide.


Russia then moved the goalposts as people said they would though and they said you know what... Ukraine's government is tyrannical and the only solution is for Russia to annex Ukraine.


That's when even Kazakhstan said yeah I don't recognize that.


Don't get me wrong, I certainly as an American citizen don't have any incentive for either side to win. If we did we would have dumped more resources into Ukraine winning. We wouldn't have put restrictions on weapons we sent or put restrictions on the type of weapons we sent them.


If Ukraine would win- there is nothing stopping Russia's massive nuclear stockpiles from getting out in the world in the wrong hands.


If Russia wins then the cost of our military defense goes up tremendously because Russia will be able to threaten other NATO countries, there won't be a Ukraine as a barrier between the two making a land bridge to Poland.

 

[TheTexan]

Russia's original argument for invading was debatable.


They invaded because they said they had a special military operation because Ukraine was tyrannical.

Well, Ukraine is tyrannical, there is not much room for debate on that subject.

Russia then moved the goalposts as people said they would though and they said you know what... Ukraine's government is tyrannical and the only solution is for Russia to annex Ukraine.

Eastern Ukraine asked for Russia to annex them, so.... what's the problem?

That's when even Kazakhstan said yeah I don't recognize that.

Even Kazakhstan? Since when was Kazakhstan a moral authority on anything?

The people of Eastern Ukraine made a decision to join Russia. Western Ukraine didn't like that, and they attacked the Eastern regions. They asked for Russia's help and Russia provided that help. This sequence of events or the facts I just mentioned really are not disputable.

So if Kazakhstan finds objection to the above... then I don't really care what Kazakhstan thinks.

If Russia wins then the cost of our military defense goes up tremendously because Russia will be able to threaten other NATO countries, there won't be a Ukraine as a barrier between the two making a land bridge to Poland.

Only if we continue to antagonize them as some villainous enemy. If instead we decide to treat them as respected neighbors in this world we share, we might be able to come to agreements to start reducing the size of our militaries, as Trump has suggested.

 

[nikcers]

Well, Ukraine is tyrannical, there is not much room for debate on that subject.




Eastern Ukraine asked for Russia to annex them, so.... what's the problem?




Even Kazakhstan? Since when was Kazakhstan a moral authority on anything?

The people of Eastern Ukraine made a decision to join Russia. Western Ukraine didn't like that, and they attacked the Eastern regions. They asked for Russia's help and Russia provided that help. This sequence of events or the facts I just mentioned really are not disputable.

So if Kazakhstan finds objection to the above... then I don't really care what Kazakhstan thinks.



Only if we continue to antagonize them as some villainous enemy. If instead we decide to treat them as respected neighbors in this world we share, we might be able to come to agreements to start reducing the size of our militaries, as Trump has suggested.

No there just is no interest in a strong Russia with a weak Europe next to it being a soft target.

We have already had to bail out Europe in the past with that balance of power.

If Europe could collectively check Russia's power that would be one thing but Europe traditionally hates eachother for hundreds of years it has been this way.

So we would be forced to intervene again eventually. Even 100 years from now.

 

[TheTexan]

No there just is no interest in a strong Russia with a weak Europe next to it being a soft target.

We have already had to bail out Europe in the past with that balance of power.

If Europe could collectively check Russia's power that would be one thing but Europe traditionally hates eachother for hundreds of years it has been this way.

So we would be forced to intervene again eventually. Even 100 years from now.

If Europe didn't want to be weak maybe it should have thought about that before taking in so many goddamn immigrants.

It's not Russia's fault that Europe is a weak piece of shit.

And if anything, Russia is more aligned with our traditional conservative values than faggot ass Europe is, so if we had to choose, we should ally with Russia instead.

 

[nikcers]

If Europe didn't want to be weak maybe it should have thought about that before taking in so many goddamn immigrants.

It's not Russia's fault that Europe is a weak piece of shit.

And if anything, Russia is more aligned with our traditional conservative values than faggot ass Europe is, so if we had to choose, we should ally with Russia instead.

Russia isn't aligned with us they have their own interests.


The United States is only aligned with the United States.


As you said before it would be fine if the balance of power was unbalanced as long as Europeans can get along and be good neighbors.


Well there isn't any evidence they can do that.


1000s of years of history says they can't do that.

The truth self evident. If there is a power vacuum in Europe it will be filled.

 

[TheTexan]

Russia isn't aligned with us they have their own interests.

More aligned than faggot ass Europe tho

The truth self evident. If there is a power vacuum in Europe it will be filled.

Good. Fuck Europe

 

[nikcers]

More aligned than faggot ass Europe tho



Good. Fuck Europe

Thats why our interests aren't aligned with either side winning.

We just want a balance of power.

 

[vita3]

Dave Smith is pretty on point & honest IMO

 

[Brian4Liberty]

 

[acptulsa]

Arguing both sides of the same question? Something Israel stooges and Trump stooges have in common.

Heck, Knockerbot has been that hypocritical in this very thread. Bots obviously have no pride.

 

[vita3]