Joe Rogan Experience #2303 - Dave Smith & Douglas Murray

[Brian4Liberty]

The eastern regions were occupied by foreign nationals and started using a foreign currency and paying taxes to a foreign nation.

That would be like if Texas during the Civil War started using the British pound and started to pay taxes to the British Empire.

This happened way before the Russian government ever "officially" annexed them.

Don't get me wrong I think we have very little interest in dumping resources into a fruitless forever war in eastern Europe.

Ya sorry this is not correct.. I took this position into consideration for a while, and have abandoned it.

The Civil War started right after the Maidan Coup in 2014. If you look at the election in 2014, you can see that the eastern regions strongly supported the more Russia friendly option, voting against the western puppet. The eastern regions were ok with being part of Ukraine as long as the President was somewhat friendly to Russia. That was the tipping point. To the extent that Russian nationals began settling the region before or after 2014 is not really relevant.

The western regions have been majority ethnic Russian ever since Khrushchev gave that territory to Ukraine in the early 50s.

And before the ethnic Russians were the majority, there were many Tatars and Jews. I doubt the Tatars will try to lay claim to any parts of Ukraine at this point...

 

[TheTexan]

Sure I believe people under a Monarchy have a right to secession.

That's just not how it works when you are a republic.

When you are a republic it's not really secession.

When you are a republic and you don't like your government you can change it. We change our government constantly.

Unless you're just saying your argument is that we aren't a republic. Which is a separate argument altogether.

I'm willing to entertain that argument but absence of evidence that's just entertainment

So if slaves and slave masters both get to vote, that makes slavery OK?

 

[nikcers]

I think you need to re-check your history with that one

No that's simply what happened. In a democracy the people choose their representatives and leaders.

In the Orange revolution the nation of Russia intervened and tried to choose Ukraines president.

This in fact overthrows the idea of a democracy which people are their own master and the revolution happened when Ukraine revolted against this action.

If Russia chooses who the president is of Ukraine that in fact makes Russia Ukraine's master.

 

[nikcers]

So if slaves and slave masters both get to vote, that makes slavery OK?

If you are your own master you technically have a master. That doesn't make you a slave though.

 

[TheTexan]

If you are your own master you technically have a master. That doesn't make you a slave though.

Ok but who decides whether or not I am my own master? It sounds like you've decided that for me.

Because I would strongly object to the idea that I am my own master in this government.

 

[TheTexan]

No that's simply what happened. In a democracy the people choose their representatives and leaders.

In the Orange revolution the nation of Russia intervened and tried to choose Ukraines president.

Yea, I don't think that's what happened

 

[Brian4Liberty]

No that's simply what happened. In a democracy the people choose their representatives and leaders.

In the Orange revolution the nation of Russia intervened and tried to choose Ukraines president.

This in fact overthrows the idea of a democracy which people are their own master and the revolution happened when Ukraine revolted against this action.

If Russia chooses who the president is of Ukraine that in fact makes Russia Ukraine's master.

LOL. Bulls!t!

The Orange revolution was fomented by Soros, Newland, CIA and globalist friends to install a pro-NATO president in Ukraine.

Nice try. Russia! Russia! Russia!

 

[nikcers]

LOL. Bulls!t!

The Orange revolution was fomented by Soros, Newland, CIA and globalist friends to install a pro-NATO president in Ukraine.

Nice try. Russia! Russia! Russia!

If you remember, at the time, both Ukraine and Russia were friendly with NATO.

Vladimir Putin himself even went to Texas and met with our president George Bush.

Russia were part of the G8. Germany was buying more and more energy from Russia which was making Russia and Germany rich.

It was only after Russia tried to topple Ukraines government that George Bush said well why doesn't Ukraine just join NATO.

 

[TheTexan]

It was only after Russia tried to topple Ukraines government that George Bush said well why doesn't Ukraine just join NATO.

Let's see here, US spends billions of dollars to influence the election in Ukraine before and during 2004, that's fine, but if Putin makes public statements in support of a candidate, that is "toppling" Ukraine's government?

 

[nikcers]

Let's see here, US spends billions of dollars to influence the election in Ukraine before and during 2004, that's fine, but if Putin makes public statements in support of a candidate, that is "toppling" Ukraine's government?

If Ukraine finds evidence that Russia rigged Ukraines elections and then Ukraine has to overturn the rigged result of the election afterwards that's a pretty big deal.

Influence is one thing. We supported Boris Yeltsin against the communists. Otherwise the communists would have came to power in Russia for example.

 

[TheTexan]

If Ukraine finds evidence that Russia rigged Ukraines elections and then Ukraine has to overturn the rigged result of the election afterwards that's a pretty big deal.

Influence is one thing. We supported Boris Yeltsin against the communists. Otherwise the communists would have came to power in Russia for example.

Okay then what evidence do you have that Russia rigged the elections?

 

[nikcers]

Okay then what evidence do you have that Russia rigged the elections?

Ukraine found the evidence and then chose the other candidate for president. They literally had to overturn the results.

 

[TheTexan]

Ukraine found the evidence and then chose the other candidate for president. They literally had to overturn the results.

Is that the same evidence that we found when Russia interfered in our elections?

 

[nikcers]

Is that the same evidence that we found when Russia interfered in our elections?

Did we find evidence and overturn our election results?

I remember Hillary Clinton telling the electoral college to vote for her anyways but that didn't happen.

 

[TheTexan]

Did we find evidence and overturn our election results?

I remember Hillary Clinton telling the electoral college to vote for her anyways but that didn't happen.

Ok so no evidence, got it that's what I figured

 

[nikcers]

Ok so no evidence, got it that's what I figured

Yeah that's how I remember it- we didn't overturn the results of the 2016 election and elect Hillary Clinton.

Ukraine had evidence and overturned their election results.

 

[TheTexan]

Ukraine had evidence and overturned their election results.

I can't find any evidence of it. And I can't find any evidence that there ever was any evidence.

What there is tons of evidence of, is that the US dumped money and resources into funding a color revolution, like it has done so many times before.

The fact that the US's color revolution was successful, does not mean there was evidence. It just means that their interference was successful.

After the US has pulled this stunt so many times and continues to do so (e.g., 2014 Ukraine)... you still fall for this trick??

 

[acptulsa]

I think you need to re-check your history with that one

It's not programmed to recheck history. It's programmed to rewrite history.

 

[nikcers]

I can't find any evidence of it. And I can't find any evidence that there ever was any evidence.

What there is tons of evidence of, is that the US dumped money and resources into funding a color revolution, like it has done so many times before.

The fact that the US's color revolution was successful, does not mean there was evidence. It just means that their interference was successful.

After the US has pulled this stunt so many times and continues to do so (e.g., 2014 Ukraine)... you still fall for this trick??

Money isnt proof of anything. China dumped more money in Ukraine than anyone.

They even had a defense agreement with China.

The USA invested in all of the former communist countries. We didn't want them to become communists again.

We even put Russia's rocket scientists on welfare and let them join NASA so that they didn't take their experience and expertise and sell rocket technologies to Pakistan or red China.

 

[TheTexan]

Money isnt proof of anything. China dumped more money in Ukraine than anyone.

Since when did proof matter?

Is that the standard we should be using?

Because there sure as shit was never any proof that the elections were rigged.

Your claim that the "Ukrainians found evidence" would be a lot more convincing, if the claims that the election were rigged, were not originated and funded by the US government.