Jimmy Kimmel show suspended after Charlie Kirk comments

[acptulsa]

Leftist, by definition, is ANTI imperialist. By your definition the manifest destiny was "leftist."

Leftists, in practice, drew an iron curtain across Europe and fought for control of swaths of northern Africa like Angola.

Looks like self-identified left wingers aren't any better than self-identified right wingers at stating what they honestly believe.

I still think the whole "controversy" is dumb. The pigs are pigs, whether their lipstick is red or blue. Left and right is a divide and conquer strategy at this point. It has ceased to be anything more. Once they get to Washington, you can't tell their politicians apart even if you do have a program.

 

[jmdrake]

Leftists, in practice, drew an iron curtain across Europe and fought for control of swaths of northern Africa like Angola.

None of that is actually imperialism. East Germans never were forced to change their language to Russian. And what alternate universe do you live in where Angola is in NORTHERN Africa? Communists helping people of Africa fight AGAINST imperialism is NOT imperialism! When you can point to the Soviet Union turning some African country into a vassal state like Hawaii let me know.

Looks like self-identified left wingers aren't any better than self-identified right wingers at stating what they honestly believe.

I'm not talking about "better" or "worse." I'm talking about imperialist versus anti imperialist. Angola was never a Russian colony. That's just a bizarre argument to make. And Angola is in southwestern Africa.

I still think the whole "controversy" is dumb. The pigs are pigs, whether their lipstick is red or blue. Left and right is a divide and conquer strategy at this point. It has ceased to be anything more. Once they get to Washington, you can't tell their politicians apart even if you do have a program.

Okay. But I'm not the one who started arguing that one side in the U.S.A. was the side behind political violence in the U..S.A. And somehow this has morphed into Angola being a North African country.

 

[acptulsa]

None of that is actually imperialism. East Germans never were forced to change their language to Russian.

Objection. Councel is ignoring precedent.

I consider that pretty irrelevant. And I don't accept your definition. The Roman Empire considered itself so imperial that they had an emperor. Yet Hebrew isn't exactly a lost language. The Russians did force Horch to cease production because they wanted East German top officials riding around in Zils.

Excuse me for not being so wrapped up in left and right that I feel the need to engage in semantics to stuff imperialism into one box or the other. Statists gonna kill people. Flavor doesn't matter.

 

[Madison320]

I would think not. But if you want to go with that number you would have to take out anyone killed by the right or by the police.

According to a study used by PBS during the george floyd riots 14-19 deaths were caused by right wing extremists and 2-3 were caused by left wing extremists.

In one case a bar owner had his bar invaded by a group of looters and he was put in a headlock so he shot the the guy. That counted as a right wing extremist death.

 

[jmdrake]

Objection. Councel is ignoring precedent.

I consider that pretty irrelevant. And I don't accept your definition. The Roman Empire considered itself so imperial that they had an emperor. Yet Hebrew isn't exactly a lost language.

You know in Jesus day they only spoke Hebrew in religious contexts right? It wasn't the common tongue. And eventually the Romans came in and destroyed the temple.

Also the Soviet Union didn't invade Eastern Europe to impose the iron curtain. They invaded it to push out the Germans just like the U.S. invaded Western Europe. And just the the U.S., they simply didn't leave after the war was over. Compare that to King Leopold, in invaded the Congo for the same reason the U.S. invaded Canada which was to expand empire.

 

[acptulsa]

They invaded it to push out the Germans...

They had already pushed the Germans out, just about the time they hit the Polish border.

All imperialism is done on some kind of pretext. I'm not saying they were wrong to keep going until the Third Reich was shut completely down. What I'm saying to you is, demanding that Germany be divided was an imperialist act.

 

[jmdrake]

According to a study used by PBS during the george floyd riots 14-19 deaths were caused by right wing extremists and 2-3 were caused by left wing extremists.

In one case a bar owner had his bar invaded by a group of looters and he was put in a headlock so he shot the the guy. That counted as a right wing extremist death.

Okay. So best case scenario you really can't say how much of this was left wing versus right wing.

 

[jmdrake]

They had already pushed the Germans out, just about the time they hit the Polish border.

Yeah...at that point the Germans had pissed off a hornets nest and hornets don't stop until you're dead. The Russians were intent on pushing the Nazi's all the way off the planet, not just out of Russia.

All imperialism is done on some kind of pretext. I'm not saying they were wrong to keep going until the Third Reich was shut completely down. What I'm saying to you is, demanding that Germany be divided was an imperialist act.

Again, not the same as King Leopold looking at the Congo and thinking to himself "Hey! Look at all of that wonderful rubber. I think I'll go kill or enslave the local population so I can tap it, sell it and fill my coffers."

Imperialists don't NEED an excuse! They just do it. There was no excuse for the U.S. to steal Hawaii from the natives. They just did it. There was no legitimate reason to overthrow Mosaddeq and install the Shah. We just did it. There was no reason for us to take Texas, New Mexico and California. We just did it. In none of those scenarios was the imperialist (King Leopold or the United States) facing an actual existential threat that, if not dealt with totally and completely, might regroup and them. Russia fought Germany in World War 1 and World War 2 just like the United States. Neither great power wanted to see Germany able to start World War 3.

 

[acptulsa]

Okay. So best case scenario you really can't say how much of this was left wing versus right wing.

Perhaps more importantly, you can't tell how much was self defense either. We're looking for impossible data to prove a distinction without a difference.

 

[TheCount]

Charlie Kirk died, but Jimmy Kimmel is the one who came back after three days.

 

[acptulsa]

Charlie Kirk died, but Jimmy Kimmel is the one who came back after three days.

And that's because speech is speech and violence is violence.

 

[jmdrake]

Perhaps more importantly, you can't tell how much was self defense either. We're looking for impossible data to prove a distinction without a difference.

Right. Which brings us back to an actual salient definition of political violence or to be more precise political murder. Take January 6th. Ashely Babbitt was killed. We can debate all day about wither her killing was justified. (I think it was). The officer who shot and killed her didn't wake up that morning thinking "I want to kill some random Trump supporter" the way Charlie Kirk's killer did. The right wing mob absolutely created violent conditions that led to her death. Likewise, regardless of what anyone things of the George Floyd protests and deaths that inadvertently came from them, that's not the same as someone getting up in the morning on a mission to delete someone because of his/her political views.

 

[TheCount]

And that's because speech is speech and violence is violence.

Which of the two is government speech? Is it speech, or is it violence?

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Right. Which brings us back to an actual salient definition of political violence or to be more precise political murder. Take January 6th. Ashely Babbitt was killed. We can debate all day about wither her killing was justified. (I think it was). The officer who shot and killed her didn't wake up that morning thinking "I want to kill some random Trump supporter" the way Charlie Kirk's killer did. The right wing mob absolutely created violent conditions that led to her death. Likewise, regardless of what anyone things of the George Floyd protests and deaths that inadvertently came from them, that's not the same as someone getting up in the morning on a mission to delete someone because of his/her political views.

Jan 6 was one day. I doubt all those people woke up that morning knowing they were going to mob and infiltrate the capital. George Floyd was over 100 days of protesting. One could argue the first day that people did not know but after the first couple of days, if you went you knew there was likelihood of violence and destruction.

 

[acptulsa]

Which of the two is government speech? Is it speech, or is it violence?

Oh, there are only two things in this world?

I'd call the overwhelming majority of it credible threats, myself.

 

[Madison320]

Okay. So best case scenario you really can't say how much of this was left wing versus right wing.

Yeah, the only thing that matters is doing the right thing.

In this case the right thing is not to retaliate against violations of free speech (Biden Big Tech) with more violations (Trump FCC).

Having said that I do think that the "retaliation" crowd is slightly less bad than the "denial" crowd. The retaliation crowd are the ones that admit that both things are a violation, it's just that they believe retaliation is justified. The ones that really annoy me are the ones that deny that their team did anything wrong. Many on the left will swear the Biden admin did nothing wrong despite overwhelming evidence that they were pressuring big tech. Many on the right swear the Trump admin did nothing wrong when the FCC guy threatened a private company. I mean they both annoy me, but the denial guys are worse. That's why I'm really bummed about Dave Smith's take on this. He really dropped a notch in my book.

 

[nikcers]

There was no legitimate reason to overthrow Mosaddeq and install the Shah.

There was a reason. We contained the Soviet Union which caused it to collapse.

We installed the Shah because the Soviet Union under Stalin wanted to take Iran as a spoil of the World War.

Whether or not you agree with the reason there was a reason.

Eisenhower froze the World War in which we were at war with the Soviet Union inside Korea and made sure Iran didnt get taken by the Soviet Union in the world war.

This lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the independence which decolonized countries like Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

There was a reason. We contained the Soviet Union which caused it to collapse.

We installed the Shah because the Soviet Union under Stalin wanted to take Iran as a spoil of the World War.

Whether or not you agree with the reason there was a reason.

Eisenhower froze the World War in which we were at war with the Soviet Union inside Korea and made sure Iran didnt get taken by the Soviet Union in the world war.

This lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the independence which decolonized countries like Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

I wonder who is in line to stop the USA.

 

[jmdrake]

Yeah, the only thing that matters is doing the right thing.

In this case the right thing is not to retaliate against violations of free speech (Biden Big Tech) with more violations (Trump FCC).

Having said that I do think that the "retaliation" crowd is slightly less bad than the "denial" crowd. The retaliation crowd are the ones that admit that both things are a violation, it's just that they believe retaliation is justified. The ones that really annoy me are the ones that deny that their team did anything wrong. Many on the left will swear the Biden admin did nothing wrong despite overwhelming evidence that they were pressuring big tech. Many on the right swear the Trump admin did nothing wrong when the FCC guy threatened a private company. I mean they both annoy me, but the denial guys are worse. That's why I'm really bummed about Dave Smith's take on this. He really dropped a notch in my book.

So 100% agreement on everything you said. Yes political violence from the left or right is bad and attacking free speech in the name of stopping political violence (or any other reason) whether it's done by left or right is bad.

nonviolent leftist:



violent leftist:

 

[nikcers]

I wonder who is in line to stop the USA.

The USA is its own worst enemy.