Jesus would have hated Christianity as organized religion

[JuicyG]

 

[TER]

Except He formed a Church and His Apostles appointed Bishops, presbyters, and deacons. And when there arouse problems such as doctrinal disputes, the same Apostles He breathed on and gave the power to forgive or retain sins would come together in council, for where two or more are gathered Christ is in their midst, and settle disputes by the Holy Spirit just as described in the Acts of the Apostles when St. James presided over the First Council of Jerusalem.

To say that the Church was not organized under a heirachal system with Christ as Head and the Bishops as shepards of the flock is at best ignorant and at worse disingenuous. It would take someone to ignore the very Scriptures themselves and the historical record of the Church to make a claim that Jesus would have hated 'organized' Chrisitianity. He was never against the hierarchal priestly structure of the Old Testament - in fact it was He Who ordained it! And He was never against the structure of the Jewish hierarchy when He walked the earth, but rather He was against the hypocrisy which had grown rampant in it. Christ did not come to abolish ecclesial hierarchy from the Old Covenant, but rather to give it meaning and fullness within the Church He came to build with Him as Head and High Priest.

 

[JuicyG]

Christ did not come to abolish ecclesial hierarchy from the Old Covenant, but rather to give it meaning and fullness within the Church He came to build with Him as Head and High Priest.

I have to strongly disagree.

The Roman emperors, thirsty for power, have crowned themselves high priests and started organized Christian religion as we know it. Initially there was one Roman empire with one emperor as high priest.

After the schism, when Roman empire separated in half, the western half transformed into Roman Catholic Church, while the Eastern Roman empire transformed itself into Christian Orthodox Church. Do you think it`s a coincidence that Roman Emperor Constantine(one who declared Christianity as accepted religion in Roman Empire) and his mother Helena, both cruel sadists and cold blooded killers are highly celebrated saints in Catholic and Orthodox Christian Church?

On some date between 15 May and 17 June 326, Constantine had his eldest son Crispus, by Minervina, seized and put to death by "cold poison" at Pola (Pula, Croatia).[227] In July, Constantine had his wife, the Empress Fausta, killed at the behest of his mother, Helena. Fausta was left to die in an over-heated bath.[228] Their names were wiped from the face of many inscriptions, references to their lives in the literary record were erased, and the memory of both was condemned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

Just as Jesus would do, right? The father of organized Christian religion was a son and wife murderer and sadist along with his mother who was also sanctified.

 

[TheViper]

Except He formed a Church and His Apostles appointed Bishops, presbyters, and deacons. And when there arouse problems such as doctrinal disputes, the same Apostles He breathed on and gave the power to forgive or retain sins would come together in council, for where two or more are gathered Christ is in their midst, and settle disputes by the Holy Spirit just as described in the Acts of the Apostles when St. James presided over the First Council of Jerusalem.

To say that the Church was not organized under a heirachal system with Christ as Head and the Bishops as shepards of the flock is at best ignorant and at worse disingenuous. It would take someone to ignore the very Scriptures themselves and the historical record of the Church to make a claim that Jesus would have hated 'organized' Chrisitianity. He was never against the hierarchal priestly structure of the Old Testament - in fact it was He Who ordained it! And He was never against the structure of the Jewish hierarchy when He walked the earth, but rather He was against the hypocrisy which had grown rampant in it. Christ did not come to abolish ecclesial hierarchy from the Old Covenant, but rather to give it meaning and fullness within the Church He came to build with Him as Head and High Priest.

Then the only problem with the title is it is missing the word 'modern'. As in, "Jesus would have hated Christianity as 'modern' organized religion."

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

 

[pcosmar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Condell

English writer, political commentator, comedian and atheist internet personality.

From early 2007, he began posting short monologues denouncing religion to a number of video sharing websites,

 

[JuicyG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Condell

So when you can`t argue with the message, you attack the messenger?

 

[pcosmar]

So when you can`t argue with the message, you attack the messenger?

Good to understand where the message is coming from.

And there was no attack.
I simply provided information.

 

[JuicyG]

Good to understand where the message is coming from.

Not really. It`s the message that counts, not the messenger.

Would you stop believing a message that makes sense just because you don`t like the messenger? I know many people would do that as a first visceral impulse but it`s the easy animal reaction, not the reasonable one.

You`re obviously still in attack mode from the other thread. I bet you didn`t bother to watch through the video.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

 

[TER]

I have to strongly disagree.

The Roman emperors, thirsty for power, have crowned themselves high priests and started organized Christian religion as we know it. Initially there was one Roman empire with one emperor as high priest.

After the schism, when Roman empire separated in half, the western half transformed into Roman Catholic Church, while the Eastern Roman empire transformed itself into Christian Orthodox Church. Do you think it`s a coincidence that Eastern Roman Empire Constantine(one who declared Christianity as official religion in Roman Empire) and his mother Helena, both cruel sadists and cold blooded killers are highly celebrated saints in Orthodox Christian Church?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

Just as Jesus would do, right? The father of organized Christian religion was a son and wife murderer and sadist along with his mother who was also sanctified.

Incorrect. The Roman Empire did not create the Church, Jesus Christ did. There were plenty of bishops, presbyters and deacons which were martyred by the Roman Empire and Jewish authorities way before the fourth century (St. Stephen the deacon being the first). To make the claim that it was the Roman Empire that started or colluded to form an organized Church is intellectually dishonest when the Scriptures themselves describe this type of organized Church as do the historical records and writings of the first three centuries when it was a crime punishable by death in being a Christian. Please study a little more.

And your judging of St. Constantine is what you have been fed and lacks all understanding of the time and place and circumstances. He was not perfect (no one is, and he knew that himself which is why even though he was a believer of Christ did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed), but he did more to save Christians from being persecuted and did more to spread the faith of Christ then almost any one single person outside of the Apostles, and certainly more then anyone in the history of human politics.

Please read some of his writings, try to understand why he called the First Ecumenical Council, learn that he did more to help the poor and destitute of the Roman Empire then any Emperor before him, and try to put aside your blind bias by looking at the whole picture instead of concentrating on the sins of the man. King David sinned to, and he is a saint. You think you appreciate and love Ron Paul, imagine you were a Chrisitian circa 320 AD. Maybe then you might get an idea of why the Church (both East and West) have considered him a saint.

 

[pcosmar]

You`re obviously still in attack mode from the other thread. I bet you didn`t bother to watch through the video.

Attack mode? There is no attack,, and the other thread you were attacking me. As you are again.

And again I simply provided information. In this case, the identity and motivation of the individual in the video.

But no,, I have no interest in listening to a godless fool attacking the Faith of others.

 

[specsaregood]

But no,, I have no interest in listening to a godless fool attacking the Faith of others.

I'm a godless fool and I would rather listen to a hundred people proclaiming their love for their faith than 1 person attacking the faith of others.

 

[JuicyG]

Incorrect. The Roman Empire did not create the Church, Jesus Christ did. There were plenty of bishops, presbyters and deacons which were martyred by the Roman Empire and Jewish authorities way before the fourth century (St. Stephen the deacon being the first). To make the claim that it was the Roman Empire that started or colluded to form an organized Church is intellectually dishonest when the Scriptures themselves describe this type of organized Church as do the historical records and writings of the first three centuries when it was a crime punishable by death in being a Christian. Please study a little more.

And your judging of St. Constantine is what you have been fed and lacks all understanding of the time and place and circumstances. He was not perfect (no one is, and he knew that himself which is why even though he was a believer of Christ did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed), but he did more to save Christians from being persecuted and did more to spread the faith of Christ then almost any one single person outside of the Apostles, and certainly more then anyone in the history of human politics.

Please read some of his writings, try to understand why he called the First Ecumenical Council, learn that he did more to help the poor and destitute of the Roman Empire then any Emperor before him, and try to put aside your blind bias by looking at the whole picture instead of concentrating on the sins of the man. King David sinned to, and he is asaint. You think you appreciate and love Ron Paul, imagine you were a Chrisitian circa 320 AD. Maybe then you might get an idea of why the Church (both East and West) have considered him a saint.

Christ did not appoint any bishops or had any intention in doing so and using it as power tool to control nations. He despised power and hierarchy and was very libertarian in that respect.
When Constantine saw Christianity was gaining ground in the empire, they`ve adopted it as official religion to be able to control their empire better. After viciously persecuting Christians, they`ve decide "if you can`t beat them, join them".

St. Constantine didn`t give a rat`s ass about Christians or Christianity. For him religion was just a power tool. Christianity became a real threat at the time for several reasons, so he decided it`s best to crown himself high priest and control it rather than to fight a losing battle.

Saying he deserved to be a saint, being son and wife murderer is ...emm hard to put into words. He would have gotten the electric chair had he lived in today`s Texas.

 

[pcosmar]

I'm a godless fool and I would rather listen to a hundred people proclaiming their love for their faith than 1 person attacking the faith of others.

That alone raises you a notch above a fool.. There is hope for you.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

 

[Revolution9]

I'm a godless fool and I would rather listen to a hundred people proclaiming their love for their faith than 1 person attacking the faith of others.

Thread and agenda ender. Juicy G has a problem with proper discernment.

Rev9

 

[JuicyG]

I'm a godless fool and I would rather listen to a hundred people proclaiming their love for their faith than 1 person attacking the faith of others.

You probably failed to realize that when "pcosmar" called the author of this video a "godless fool" he basically attacked his atheist views aka his faith by calling them foolish.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

 

[JuicyG]

Thread and agenda ender. Juicy G has a problem with proper discernment.

Rev9

A paranoid conspiracy lover accusing me of lacking "proper discernment"? Another one attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message.

Also, what`s my "agenda"? I bet your paranoid mind has concocted some devious reasons for why I`ve created this thread.

Do others who start threads in this section also have an "agenda" when tackling religious subjects that you like? Or is it an "agenda" only when subject isn`t to your liking?