"It Belongs To The People, Not The Bankers" - Italy Moves To Seize Gold From Central Bank

[ATruepatriot]

Link to horse prices in terms of gold?

History is not your strong point is it? They didn't have the internet back then. lol

Now that's a spin... I know how to do it too.

If you don't already know this, then you have no true economic history about metals. And I don't have 3 hours to waste to educate you.

 

[devil21]

If their value is fixed, their relative prices should stay the same. Since it does not, at least one and probably both are changing in value over time.

So then no you won't post the chart I requested. What I am obviously saying (and you know this but I'm playing along with you, for the folks at home) is that currencies fluctuate and it is currencies that denominate "price" and the associated paper games denominated in those currencies. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Stop thinking about price and start thinking about value. We can get into the origins of gold and silver's value but that heads off into occultist territory and historical beliefs held by a small, powerful few, as to where gold and silver originate from.

 

[devil21]

History is not your strong point is it? They didn't have the internet back then. lol

Now that's a spin... I know how to do it too.

If you don't already know this, then you have no true economic history about metals. And I don't have 3 hours to waste to educate you.

Zippy is the resident banker apologist and PR guy. Don't stress over it. He knows all of what we are talking about but it's his job to act like he doesn't.

 

[Superfluous Man]

So then no you won't post the chart I requested. What I am obviously saying (and you know this but I'm playing along with you, for the folks at home) is that currencies fluctuate and it is currencies that denominate "price" and the associated paper games denominated in those currencies. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Stop thinking about price and start thinking about value. We can get into the origins of gold and silver's value but that heads off into occultist territory and historical beliefs held by a small, powerful few, as to where gold and silver originate from.

It's not just currencies that fluctuate. All the prices of everything else fluctuate relative to one another as well. At one point in time, the amount of Big Macs you can buy for what it costs to get a barrel of oil will be one ratio, and at some other time it will be a different ratio. And it's the same with any two other goods. Not only do prices constantly change, but the relative prices of one thing to another do too.

 

[Superfluous Man]

History is not your strong point is it? They didn't have the internet back then. lol

Now that's a spin... I know how to do it too.

If you don't already know this, then you have no true economic history about metals. And I don't have 3 hours to waste to educate you.

So you're standing by that horse claim?

Because I'm also skeptical. And the fact that you don't have a source for it doesn't engender confidence in it. What checking I've done just since reading your post doesn't support your claim.

 

[Zippyjuan]

So then no you won't post the chart I requested. What I am obviously saying (and you know this but I'm playing along with you, for the folks at home) is that currencies fluctuate and it is currencies that denominate "price" and the associated paper games denominated in those currencies. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Stop thinking about price and start thinking about value. We can get into the origins of gold and silver's value but that heads off into occultist territory and historical beliefs held by a small, powerful few, as to where gold and silver originate from.

Posting their ratio ignores what their currency price is and focuses on their relative values. Again, if their value does not change, then neither should the ratio. Since the ratio does change, then their value is not fixed. Perhaps you can post what the ratio was back when the government declared how much they were worth by backing currency with them.

I will share this bit from Kitco which promotes silver and gold:

https://www.kitco.com/commentaries/2016-05-10/The-45-Year-Record-of-Gold-Silver-Ratios.html

Our documentation of ratios since August 1971 debunks the propaganda that comes from hard-core silver bugs about the metal’s relative value to gold.

From a compendium of sources, the average abundance of gold in Earth’s crust is about 4 ppb while silver is about 70 ppb, for a ratio of 1:17.5. Based on these crustal abundances, silver perma-bulls promote a platform that gold-silver ratios should be less than 20.

Their argument is also based on historic gold-silver ratios from late 1792 to 1890 when there was bimetallic backing of the US dollar and/or attempts to control silver prices with coinage legislation, and a two-month period during the parabolic top of precious metals prices in early 1980.

Ergo say they, the price of silver is constantly manipulated, silver is woefully undervalued, and it is always on the verge of a major breakout.

However, silver aficionados ignore important facts regarding supplies, demand, and uses of the two radically different metals:

Silver is mostly used as an industrial metal (54%); much of that yearly demand is consumed and a relatively minor amount is recycled.

Gold is a precious metal; 90% is used in jewelry and investments and 10% in industrial applications.

An estimated 98% of all the gold ever mined in the world remains available and held in jewelry, by central banks, in private hoards, and as fabricated products (source: USGS).

Cumulative historic world production of silver and gold is estimated from various sources to be about 9.2:1 (1,690,000 tonnes versus 182,000 tonnes).

For the past 11 years, the ratio of silver to gold mined is about the same at 9.0:1 (258,000 tonnes versus 28,600 tonnes from 2005-2015).

About 70% of new silver is a by-product from base metal or gold mines; therefore, silver production is largely dependent on the prices of these primary metals.

I conclude that since August 1971 when gold was partially freed from the US dollar on world exchanges, Earth’s crustal abundances, historic fixed-price relationships, and mine production have had no influence on the gold-silver ratio.

Instead, the relative prices of gold and silver are driven by:

Industrial demand for silver and the vast amount of available above-ground stocks of silver held by hoarders and speculators.
The health of the world economy and geopolitical events.
Central bank transactions and safe haven hoarding of gold.
Speculative traders moving in and out of physical and paper markets of both metals.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Zippy is the resident banker apologist and PR guy. Don't stress over it. He knows all of what we are talking about but it's his job to act like he doesn't.

I'm starting to enjoy the example of ineptness. The horse example really is a decent one to use when comparing the stability of metal value and purchasing power vrs the fluctuation in value and purchasing power of currency because both have spanned the ages as stable in cost/value. It was shared with me years ago by a professional economist as an example in this very same discussion.

 

[Superfluous Man]

I'm starting to enjoy the example of ineptness. The horse example really is a decent one to use when comparing the stability of metal value and purchasing power vrs the fluctuation in value and purchasing power of currency because both have spanned the ages as stable in cost/value. It was shared with me years ago by a professional economist as an example in this very same discussion.

Did that economist point to the actual data, or just make the claim?

 

[devil21]

Nice commentary but it again only reflects the temporary games that can be played with an unrestrained printing press that will eventually and inevitably fail. 45 years is nothing when it comes to determining something's value. Remarkably short-sighted, in fact.

 

[ATruepatriot]

So you're standing by that horse claim?

Because I'm also skeptical. And the fact that you don't have a source for it doesn't engender confidence in it. What checking I've done just since reading your post doesn't support your claim.

Absolutely... The two have correlated in stable value throughout time.

 

[Zippyjuan]

I'm starting to enjoy the example of ineptness. The horse example really is a decent one to use when comparing the stability of metal value and purchasing power vrs the fluctuation in value and purchasing power of currency because both have spanned the ages as stable in cost/value. It was shared with me years ago by a professional economist as an example in this very same discussion.

So you don't have any horse prices to share? You make a claim and cannot support it?

 

[Superfluous Man]

Absolutely... The two have correlated in stable value throughout time.

I have not found that to be the case.

Can you point to a source for that claim that someone can check?

Also, when you say "value" I think what you mean is relative price. Only prices can be correlated quantitatively. Values cannot, because, again, value is subjective by definition.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Did that economist point to the actual data, or just make the claim?

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

 

[Zippyjuan]

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

I can find gold prices but am having troubles with horse prices. By law, gold prices were roughly $20 an ounce from 1792- 1946. http://onlygold.com/Info/Historical-Gold-Prices.asp

I do find this:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-it-cost-to-own-and-travel-with-a-horse-back-in-the-1850s-or-1860s

In the west US it was possible to buy a horse for as little as $10, but a decent riding equine cost around $150, with a range of $120 (1861) to $185 (1865). A pack horse for the Oregon Trail cost $25 in the US in 1850, but a riding horse would run you $75. A saddle with saddle bags cost $25 in 1850, a horse blanket $2, and hay only cost 4 cents a kilo.

To give you an idea of cost adjusted for inflation, in 1850 a production worker earned 6 cents an hour, and by 1860 this wage had zoomed to 8 cents an hour. So to earn the price of a ten dollar horse, a production worker in 1850 would have to work for 167 hours (figure a 10 hour day, that's more than 2 weeks).

So a decent riding horse (average $150 with gold at $20 an ounce) would be 7.5 ounces of gold. With gold at about $1300 an ounce today, that would be about $10,000.

Today?

https://www.equine.com/price-guide

In fact, listings can range from free horses to steeds costing upwards of $100,000 – and sometimes far more for an elite show. However, most pleasure riders can find a good-natured, healthy trail horse for less than $5,000.

Nothing close to one ounce of gold- then or today. And about half the price today as in the 1800's in terms of gold. Relative prices changed over time.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Things have value not because of some magic properties an object may possess but because people decide it is worth something to them. And that can change over time. Aluminum was once considered more valuable than gold- because it was shiny and considered relatively rare. Then it turned out there was lots of it and it was not so rare. Tulips once had value because people thought they wanted them (and could hopefully resell them to somebody who liked them even more than they did). Prices soared. People got bored and prices collapsed. Gold (now that it is free from being tied to money) also undergoes whims. It does have industrial usage but most price is driven by fad and fear. When economic times get tougher, they buy more of it. When times get better, they lose interest. If you are in a desert, water is valuable. If you are in the middle of a flood, you might be willing to pay not for more water but to make the excess go away. The value is relative and changes. Nothing has fixed value.

 

[Superfluous Man]

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

Oh good. What's his name? I'll look that up.

 

[ATruepatriot]

I can find gold prices but am having troubles with horse prices. By law, gold prices were roughly $20 an ounce from 1792- 1946. http://onlygold.com/Info/Historical-Gold-Prices.asp

I do find this:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-it-cost-to-own-and-travel-with-a-horse-back-in-the-1850s-or-1860s



So a decent riding horse (average $150 with gold at $20 an ounce) would be 7.5 ounces of gold. With gold at about $1300 an ounce today, that would be about $10,000.

Today?

I can buy a decent horse for $1,200 right now.

https://lite.qwant.com/?q=Horses+for+sale+$1,200&client=opensearch

And this is what it REALLY says at that link...

"Robert Flowers, former RETIRED but Still a Cowboy at USMC & BOEING (1976-2015)
Answered 24w ago · Author has 993 answers and 207.5k answer views

After the Civil War, my Great-grandfather mustered out of the Confederacy with his horse and revolver, plus his parole pay. The horse was valued at $10 and the saddle $15, but was listed as “retained 1 horse and saddle” on his parole paperwork. He headed west to California after stopping to see his parents. In San Francisco, he boarded the horse at a local OK Corral with the option it and his saddle would be rented out to pay for feeding the horse, (which otherwise would cost him forty cents a day for hay). He checked into a hotel, turned in his laundry with the Chinaman, went into a saloon… and woke up on a clipper ship outside the entry to San Francisco Bay & headed for China. Being unemployed, “recently Confederate” and completely destitute, he went to the Orient and back as an able bodied seaman. About 18 months later, he was back in ‘Frisco with a new identity as a “former sailor”… He picked up his horse and laundry and moved back to Arkansas, with the story “he was from California”. (When I was told the story, it was inferred the laundry also went to China and back, as the Chinaman grinned and said, “good timing” when giving him the laundry.)

Most of the nineteenth century a trail horse was 10–15 dollars, a saddle 20–50 dollars. It always cost far more to feed a horse hay each year than the purchase price of the horse.

2k Views · View 4 Upvoters

 

[Zippyjuan]

I can buy a decent horse for $1,200 right now.

https://lite.qwant.com/?q=Horses+for+sale+$1,200&client=opensearch

And this is what it REALLY says at that link...

"Robert Flowers, former RETIRED but Still a Cowboy at USMC & BOEING (1976-2015)
Answered 24w ago · Author has 993 answers and 207.5k answer views

After the Civil War, my Great-grandfather mustered out of the Confederacy with his horse and revolver, plus his parole pay. The horse was valued at $10 and the saddle $15, but was listed as “retained 1 horse and saddle” on his parole paperwork. He headed west to California after stopping to see his parents. In San Francisco, he boarded the horse at a local OK Corral with the option it and his saddle would be rented out to pay for feeding the horse, (which otherwise would cost him forty cents a day for hay). He checked into a hotel, turned in his laundry with the Chinaman, went into a saloon… and woke up on a clipper ship outside the entry to San Francisco Bay & headed for China. Being unemployed, “recently Confederate” and completely destitute, he went to the Orient and back as an able bodied seaman. About 18 months later, he was back in ‘Frisco with a new identity as a “former sailor”… He picked up his horse and laundry and moved back to Arkansas, with the story “he was from California”. (When I was told the story, it was inferred the laundry also went to China and back, as the Chinaman grinned and said, “good timing” when giving him the laundry.)

Most of the nineteenth century a trail horse was 10–15 dollars, a saddle 20–50 dollars. It always cost far more to feed a horse hay each year than the purchase price of the horse.

2k Views · View 4 Upvoters

Is $1200 the average horse price? Or did you just search that price point?

Using the first link from your link, https://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale

few are below $10,000.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Oh good. What's his name? I'll look that up.

It's been years how do I know? Since it is an absolute "life or death matter" for everyone to prove me a liar I will try to chase it down. If I hadn't actually read it and found it to be creditable I would have never said a damned thing.

I do have to tell you though that you are absolutely right about value being subjective. What that horse could be purchased for in one place could cost 500% more in another place based on supply and demand. But that has to do with the price of the product not the purchasing power of the metal.

 

[Zippyjuan]

It's been years how do I know? Since it is an absolute "life or death matter" for everyone to prove me a liar I will try to chase it down. If I hadn't actually read it and found it to be creditable I would have never said a damned thing.

I do have to tell you though that you are absolutely right about value being subjective. What that horse could be purchased for in one place could cost 500% more in another place based on supply and demand. But that has to do with the price of the product not the purchasing power of the metal.

Metals too have supply and demand effecting their value/ prices which are subjective.