Issue: Internet: FTC abandons net neutrality

Mesogen

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Ok, here's one of those times where I don't have an answer and would like to try to learn more about a subject by discussing it.

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2193214/ftc-abandons-net-neutrality

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has decided to abandon net neutrality and allow telecoms companies to charge websites for access.

The FTC said in a report that, despite popular support for net neutrality, it was minded to let the market sort out the issue.

This means that the organisation will not stand in the way of companies using differential pricing to make sure that some websites can be viewed more quickly than others. The report also counsels against net neutrality legislation.

"This report recommends that policy makers proceed with caution in the evolving dynamic industry of broadband internet access, which is generally moving towards more, not less, competition," FTC chairman Deborah Platt Majoras wrote.

"In the absence of significant market failure, or demonstrated consumer harm, policy makers should be particularly hesitant to enact new regulation in this area."

Now the thing is, the FTC is saying that there is no evidence that there would be harm to consumers, but there might be some serious harm to small websites trying to get their word out.

People who run websites already have to pay for bandwidth, so what new charges will they have to pay?

I never did entirely get the net neutrality argument or why huge internet content providers started going apeshit recently.

If I were starting up a website and wanted to offer customers some sort of content, why should I be worried about this FTC ruling?
 
This is definitely bad news because denying Net Neutrality will only help the "power players" while increasing the barriers to entry for the newcomers. Basically, if you're planning to start an internet business that may pose competition to popular websites, I.S.P.'s will handicap you by making you or the consumer PAY to view your content. At least thats what I've understood from this issue.

- D.O.
 
So by "pay" you mean pay separate fees, apart from the monthly user fees of the consumer and the bandwidth fees of the content provider?

I mean everyone already pays to use and access the internet. What other fees will they tack on?
 
The telcos want a tiered pricing model, where people can pay more or higher speed and less for less speed. Thats generally a smart thing to do for both customers (in general) and business. The real fear is of course that they will rip people off. But there is already anti-trust legislation in place to deal with that, the whole net neutrality thing isn't really as much of an issue as people make it out to be.
 
So by "pay" you mean pay separate fees, apart from the monthly user fees of the consumer and the bandwidth fees of the content provider?

I mean everyone already pays to use and access the internet. What other fees will they tack on?
I don't know the details of it off the top, but I wrote a lengthly piece on my blog that explains everything and what it means for the average net surfer.

- D.O.
 
I liked it when you had the black background better. It's much easier to read.



There are many articles online about this. This was from today or yesterday on boingboing.
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/08/weinberger_delaminat.html


The telcos want a tiered pricing model, where people can pay more or higher speed and less for less speed. Thats generally a smart thing to do for both customers (in general) and business. The real fear is of course that they will rip people off. But there is already anti-trust legislation in place to deal with that, the whole net neutrality thing isn't really as much of an issue as people make it out to be.

Websites already pay for bandwidth. You pay more for more bandwidth and less for less bandwidth.

You are saying they will charge what they charge now for low speed and low bandwidth and charge even more if websites want to keep their current speed and bandwidth. All the while, there are no competitors to run to because of the monopolistic system put in place with the help of the government.

People keep saying "let the free market work itself out," but there is no free market when it comes to the internet or telecommunications.
 
Websites already pay for bandwidth. You pay more for more bandwidth and less for less bandwidth.

You are saying they will charge what they charge now for low speed and low bandwidth and charge even more if websites want to keep their current speed and bandwidth. All the while, there are no competitors to run to because of the monopolistic system put in place with the help of the government.

People keep saying "let the free market work itself out," but there is no free market when it comes to the internet or telecommunications.
Yes, but there are already laws in place that can deal with that without having to regulate internet protocols and ISP pricing schemes. They've always been able to charge more money anyways, the availability of a tiered pricing scheme doesn't suddenly give them the power to rip people off.
 
What are people getting so upset about then?

By "people" I mean google, yahoo, amazon, etc.

Why are these people so worried? They know how the internet works and they are afraid of something. What is it?
 
What are people getting so upset about then?

By "people" I mean google, yahoo, amazon, etc.

Why are these people so worried? They know how the internet works and they are afraid of something. What is it?
I think the people who use huge amounts of bandwidth might end up paying more for it, like google, amazon and yahoo. I'm not entirely sure. One thing I do know is that it is odd to discuss regulation for something before you even know what is going to happen (i.e., the solution is being put before the problem).
 
I'm not saying we need net neutrality regulation right now.

I'm trying to figure out what the big problem is (or would hypothetically be).

It seems like a battle between big content providers and big telcos, both of whom are putting out spin and disinfo to make their case.

That's why I don't get it. They speak in generalities and I'd like to learn some specifics. That would give me a better idea. I try to look for articles or websites that will give me some details, but I just get vague generalities.
 
Basically, the problem is this: Network providers like AT&T don't like to build more network capacity, because it costs them money. So lets say they have a 45MBit T3 line to the internet and on that line they have, I don't know, 200 customers with 1.5MBit DSL lines. So obviously these customers can't each be using the full 1.5MBit at once, because 300MBit > 45MBit. That's okay though, because not all 200 customers will want to be using the full bandwidth of their connection at the same time. As long as the total usage during peak hours is less than 45MBit, AT&T doesn't have to spend money to install a faster pipe to the internet.

However, over time network usage tends to go up. When DSL first came around, it was replacing dialup and everybody was just visiting web pages that had text on them. Now everybody is visiting Youtube and using BitTorrent to distribute Ron Paul videos and people are using more bandwidth. Now the problem is, if the amount of data its users are transferring exceeds the capacity of its connection to the rest of the internet, they have to drop some packets. When they do that, the endpoints just resend them, but then they take longer to get there. This is especially a problem with interactive stuff like streaming video. In that case the video gets choppy and customers start complaining. The proper course of action is then for AT&T to open its wallet and build a faster pipe to the internet so that customers will have the bandwidth they paid for.

Except that AT&T *hates* to open its wallet. So what they want to do is, instead of expanding capacity to meet demand, they want Youtube to pay them for priority so that their videos won't be choppy. So then Youtube pays AT&T to keep from going out of business, and instead of dropping Youtube packets, AT&T drops some other packets instead. This makes the problem even worse for anyone who isn't paying this AT&T extortion fee, because now even more of their packets are getting dropped. So all the big companies on the internet, who already paid for *their* internet connections, now have to pay every ISP for *your* internet connections, even though *you* already paid for it. Worse, all the little guys who can't afford this toll get most of their traffic dropped -- and that includes all P2P traffic. So now when you want to go download that Ron Paul DVD using BitTorrent, instead of it taking 4 hours to download, it takes 2 months. And that little company that would have been the next Google can never get started because nobody can use their service when 80% of the packets get dropped.

People keep saying "let the free market work itself out," but there is no free market when it comes to the internet or telecommunications.
That's exactly the problem. The cable companies and telcos often have exclusive rights to the right of way, and even when they don't, the government has given them hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies to build their networks. The rest of the market can't compete with that level of government interference. And when you have a government-created monopoly, the government needs to either regulate it or eliminate it. Net neutrality is choosing to regulating it. Sad as it is, that's probably easier than eliminating it -- at least in the medium term. In the longer term, converting more wireless spectrum to internet access and providing easier access to the public right of way may give competitors an incentive to come into the market, but building anything of that sort would require years of roll out, assuming anyone is even interested in competing with telcos that have already received hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in subsidies.
 
I liked it when you had the black background better. It's much easier to read.



There are many articles online about this. This was from today or yesterday on boingboing.
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/08/weinberger_delaminat.html




Websites already pay for bandwidth. You pay more for more bandwidth and less for less bandwidth.

You are saying they will charge what they charge now for low speed and low bandwidth and charge even more if websites want to keep their current speed and bandwidth. All the while, there are no competitors to run to because of the monopolistic system put in place with the help of the government.

People keep saying "let the free market work itself out," but there is no free market when it comes to the internet or telecommunications.
Thanks for the tip, I changed it because some of the text was black and might confuzzle the reader.

And I believe you are correct, internet and telecommunications is not a free market, it is a service used to reach a market.

- D.O.
 
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Does Ron Paul have a position on this? I think he's been asked and admitted this was an issue he didn't know much about.
 
However, over time network usage tends to go up. When DSL first came around, it was replacing dialup and everybody was just visiting web pages that had text on them. Now everybody is visiting Youtube and using BitTorrent to distribute Ron Paul videos and people are using more bandwidth. Now the problem is, if the amount of data its users are transferring exceeds the capacity of its connection to the rest of the internet, they have to drop some packets. When they do that, the endpoints just resend them, but then they take longer to get there. This is especially a problem with interactive stuff like streaming video. In that case the video gets choppy and customers start complaining. The proper course of action is then for AT&T to open its wallet and build a faster pipe to the internet so that customers will have the bandwidth they paid for.

This is where I get lost. At this point why not just charge more for internet access? If people on average are using more bandwidth then shouldn't the price go up? ISP's are giving away more product.. a simple cost increase should follow. Now that they have increased revenue they can afford the needed upgrades and keep up with demand.

It doesn't make any sense that a content provider should be charged more for giving away more product per person (don't we charge more when we give more?), the cost should go to the consumer who is consuming more of the product.

In a truly free internet market hosts wouldn't pay for bandwidth at all eliminating barriers to entry to bring the most products to compete in the market.

The tiered system and fees should be on the consumer and should be an expansion of what is in place now. 56k, cable, dsl.. but in addition you get X download gigs per month. So you can have dsl with 5 gig, 10 gig, 50 gig a month options, etc. and repeat for each access speed.
 
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Basically, the problem is this: Network providers like AT&T don't like to build more network capacity, because it costs them money. So lets say they have a 45MBit T3 line to the internet and on that line they have, I don't know, 200 customers with 1.5MBit DSL lines. So obviously these customers can't each be using the full 1.5MBit at once, because 300MBit > 45MBit. That's okay though, because not all 200 customers will want to be using the full bandwidth of their connection at the same time. As long as the total usage during peak hours is less than 45MBit, AT&T doesn't have to spend money to install a faster pipe to the internet.

However, over time network usage tends to go up. When DSL first came around, it was replacing dialup and everybody was just visiting web pages that had text on them. Now everybody is visiting Youtube and using BitTorrent to distribute Ron Paul videos and people are using more bandwidth. Now the problem is, if the amount of data its users are transferring exceeds the capacity of its connection to the rest of the internet, they have to drop some packets. When they do that, the endpoints just resend them, but then they take longer to get there. This is especially a problem with interactive stuff like streaming video. In that case the video gets choppy and customers start complaining. The proper course of action is then for AT&T to open its wallet and build a faster pipe to the internet so that customers will have the bandwidth they paid for.

Except that AT&T *hates* to open its wallet. So what they want to do is, instead of expanding capacity to meet demand, they want Youtube to pay them for priority so that their videos won't be choppy. So then Youtube pays AT&T to keep from going out of business, and instead of dropping Youtube packets, AT&T drops some other packets instead. This makes the problem even worse for anyone who isn't paying this AT&T extortion fee, because now even more of their packets are getting dropped. So all the big companies on the internet, who already paid for *their* internet connections, now have to pay every ISP for *your* internet connections, even though *you* already paid for it. Worse, all the little guys who can't afford this toll get most of their traffic dropped -- and that includes all P2P traffic. So now when you want to go download that Ron Paul DVD using BitTorrent, instead of it taking 4 hours to download, it takes 2 months. And that little company that would have been the next Google can never get started because nobody can use their service when 80% of the packets get dropped.

That's exactly the problem. The cable companies and telcos often have exclusive rights to the right of way, and even when they don't, the government has given them hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies to build their networks. The rest of the market can't compete with that level of government interference. And when you have a government-created monopoly, the government needs to either regulate it or eliminate it. Net neutrality is choosing to regulating it. Sad as it is, that's probably easier than eliminating it -- at least in the medium term. In the longer term, converting more wireless spectrum to internet access and providing easier access to the public right of way may give competitors an incentive to come into the market, but building anything of that sort would require years of roll out, assuming anyone is even interested in competing with telcos that have already received hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in subsidies.


That explains a lot...
 
That explains a lot...

It does but not totally. Why does AT&T have the option to simply tier service rather than expand to meet overall demand?

They are the backbone, they get tons of money to help them be the backbone. Why aren't they required to keep up? Most monopolies are created to provide a service everyone needs and to keep up with public demands. If we were running out of water they wouldn't start charging more for assured access, they would find a way to deliver more water. Why isn't this the same?
 
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Basically, the problem is this: Network providers like AT&T don't like to build more network capacity, because it costs them money. So lets say they have a 45MBit T3 line to the internet and on that line they have, I don't know, 200 customers with 1.5MBit DSL lines. So obviously these customers can't each be using the full 1.5MBit at once, because 300MBit > 45MBit. That's okay though, because not all 200 customers will want to be using the full bandwidth of their connection at the same time. As long as the total usage during peak hours is less than 45MBit, AT&T doesn't have to spend money to install a faster pipe to the internet.

However, over time network usage tends to go up. When DSL first came around, it was replacing dialup and everybody was just visiting web pages that had text on them. Now everybody is visiting Youtube and using BitTorrent to distribute Ron Paul videos and people are using more bandwidth. Now the problem is, if the amount of data its users are transferring exceeds the capacity of its connection to the rest of the internet, they have to drop some packets. When they do that, the endpoints just resend them, but then they take longer to get there. This is especially a problem with interactive stuff like streaming video. In that case the video gets choppy and customers start complaining. The proper course of action is then for AT&T to open its wallet and build a faster pipe to the internet so that customers will have the bandwidth they paid for.

Except that AT&T *hates* to open its wallet. So what they want to do is, instead of expanding capacity to meet demand, they want Youtube to pay them for priority so that their videos won't be choppy. So then Youtube pays AT&T to keep from going out of business, and instead of dropping Youtube packets, AT&T drops some other packets instead. This makes the problem even worse for anyone who isn't paying this AT&T extortion fee, because now even more of their packets are getting dropped. So all the big companies on the internet, who already paid for *their* internet connections, now have to pay every ISP for *your* internet connections, even though *you* already paid for it. Worse, all the little guys who can't afford this toll get most of their traffic dropped -- and that includes all P2P traffic. So now when you want to go download that Ron Paul DVD using BitTorrent, instead of it taking 4 hours to download, it takes 2 months. And that little company that would have been the next Google can never get started because nobody can use their service when 80% of the packets get dropped.

That's exactly the problem. The cable companies and telcos often have exclusive rights to the right of way, and even when they don't, the government has given them hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies to build their networks. The rest of the market can't compete with that level of government interference. And when you have a government-created monopoly, the government needs to either regulate it or eliminate it. Net neutrality is choosing to regulating it. Sad as it is, that's probably easier than eliminating it -- at least in the medium term. In the longer term, converting more wireless spectrum to internet access and providing easier access to the public right of way may give competitors an incentive to come into the market, but building anything of that sort would require years of roll out, assuming anyone is even interested in competing with telcos that have already received hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in subsidies.

This pretty much hits it on the head, probably faster than my blog entry. :D


I guess a shorthand way of saying this is, the Internet is becoming like cable television, and people are weary of whether or not they will be getting HBO, STARZ, SHOTIME, etc., or downgraded to basic cable and no alternative, except lots of static.


- D.O.
 
This pretty much hits it on the head, probably faster than my blog entry. :D


I guess a shorthand way of saying this is, the Internet is becoming like cable television, and people are weary of whether or not they will be getting HBO, STARZ, SHOTIME, etc., or downgraded to basic cable and no alternative, except lots of static.


- D.O.

So helpful guys- thanks for taking the time to make these posts to help me understand.
 
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Just FYI, Ron Paul is AGAINST government mandated Net Neutrality. And I am glad he is.

Net Neutrality lets the govt gets its greedy little hands on the internet and start regulating it. I don't want that. Ron Paul doesn't want that. It is another example of something that *sounds* like a good idea; but the govt has proven time and time again that they only make things worse.

But don't take my words for it; here is RP on this subject on the house floor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7_h_OyTI0
 
The ISPs basically want to limit your access to the internet. If ISP A makes a deal with Amazon, they will charge the users additional money to access Barnes & Noble or some other competing website.
 
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