Issue: Elections: Electoral College

winston84

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I'd like to know what is Ron Paul's take on the electoral college? Another member of the forum alluded to this, but has there ever been an instance where a state's electoral votes went to a candidate other than the one that received the popular vote within that state?
 
Since the two party system evolved and we changed the Constitution to vote separately for President and Vice President, no.

There have been "faithless electors"
 
Actually now that i think about it i'd really like to know RP's stance on this. I really hope he is for eliminating it though seeing as its one of the most absurd convoluted inventions. If he supports it as a constitutional matter i think it would show too much deference to the founders and not enough individual thought.

I'd also like to know his opinion on instant run-off voting (something he stands the most to benefit from).
 
Did the founding fathers really intend to use the electoral college to make the person with less popular vote win the election like what happened in 2000.
 
Actually now that i think about it i'd really like to know RP's stance on this. I really hope he is for eliminating it though seeing as its one of the most absurd convoluted inventions. If he supports it as a constitutional matter i think it would show too much deference to the founders and not enough individual thought.

I'd also like to know his opinion on instant run-off voting (something he stands the most to benefit from).

I think it's very important to keep the electoral college. It keeps the big states from taking all the power. The people aren't supposed to elect the President: the States are.

I'm more in facor of repealing the 17th Amendment, and let the States return to deciding for themselves how to elect Senators. Personally, I'd rather see them answerable to the Governor or the Legislators than to the citizens, because they're just too far removed from the citizens.
 
Did the founding fathers really intend to use the electoral college to make the person with less popular vote win the election like what happened in 2000.

Absolutely. The whole system was specifically designed to ensure that the least populous states had every bit as much a voice in choosing their leader as the bigger states.

Admittedly, the system made more sense when the States held the real power.
 
Did the founding fathers really intend to use the electoral college to make the person with less popular vote win the election like what happened in 2000.

No.
Since Electoral College representation is based on congressional representation, states with larger populations get more Electoral College votes.
The candidate who wins the popular vote in a state wins all the pledged votes of the state's electors.

The purpose of the Electoral College is to magnify a Presidential candidate's popular vote to lessen the chance of a narrow win and remove indecision. According to the Constitution, the only way a Presidential candidate with a less popular vote could win is if an elector in the Electoral College was dishonest or the votes were rigged.
 
The Electoral College vs. Mob Rule

by Dr. Ron Paul

Today’s presidential election is likely to be relatively close, at least in terms of popular vote totals. Should either candidate win the election but lose the overall popular vote, we will be bombarded with calls to abolish the Electoral College, just as we were after the contested 2000 presidential election. After all, the pundits will argue, it would be “undemocratic” to deny the presidency to the man who received the most votes.

This argument is hostile to the Constitution, however, which expressly established the United States as a constitutionally limited republic and not a direct democracy. The Founding Fathers sought to protect certain fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of speech, against the changing whims of popular opinion. Similarly, they created the Electoral College to guard against majority tyranny in federal elections. The president was to be elected by the 50 states rather than the American people directly, to ensure that less populated states had a voice in national elections. This is why they blended Electoral College votes between U.S. House seats, which are based on population, and U.S. Senate seats, which are accorded equally to each state. The goal was to balance the inherent tension between majority will and majority tyranny. Those who wish to abolish the Electoral College because it’s not purely democratic should also argue that less populated states like Rhode Island or Wyoming don’t deserve two senators.

A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states. Moreover, a popular vote system would only intensify political pandering, as national candidates would face even greater pressure than today to take empty, middle-of-the-road, poll-tested, mainstream positions. Direct democracy in national politics would further dilute regional differences of opinion on issues, further narrow voter choices, and further emasculate political courage.

Those who call for the abolition of the Electoral College are hostile to liberty. Not surprisingly, most advocates of abolition are statist elites concentrated largely on the east and west coasts. These political, economic, academic, media, and legal elites overwhelmingly favor a strong centralized federal government, and express contempt for the federalist concept of states’ rights. They believe in omnipotent federal power, with states acting as mere glorified federal counties carrying out commands from Washington.

The Electoral College threatens the imperial aims of these elites because it allows the individual states to elect the president, and in many states the majority of voters still believe in limited government and the Constitution. Voters in southern, midwestern, and western states – derided as “flyover” country – tend to value family, religion, individual liberty, property rights, and gun rights. Washington elites abhor these values, and they hate that middle and rural America hold any political power whatsoever. Their efforts to discredit the Electoral College system are an open attack on the voting power of the pro-liberty states.

Sadly, we have forgotten that states created the federal government, not the other way around. The Electoral College system represents an attempt, however effective, to limit federal power and preserve states’ rights. It is an essential part of our federalist balance. It also represents a reminder that pure democracy, mob rule, is incompatible with liberty.

November 2, 2004

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul214.html
 
Well i think saying the electoral college enhances states rights is simply not true (hate to disagree with paul). Smaller states certainly don't benefit to any noticable extent. To claim that it acts as a stabilizing buffer also makes no sense as it simply responds to the whims of the public as well. The only thing the electoral college accomplishes is it makes what state you live in far too important for your vote. A republican living in NY might as well not vote at all (if RP doesn't pass the primary i probably won't bother) but someone living 100 miles away in ohio makes all the difference. This doesn't embody liberty to me. As for senators, it may be taboo here to question the constitution too much but i don't think they're necessary. I think that an equal number of people should have an equal number of representatives, regardless of where they live. I better get out my flame suit for this one.
 
Trivia time: There was one other time (that I am aware of) when the electoral college selected a president that didn't win the popular vote. That was Woodrow Wilson. Counting votes was a much slower process back then. It came down to California, and then to one tiny precinct in the Sierra Nevada mountains. This tiny community was so proud of themselves being the ones who tipped the election, that they renamed their community "Wilsonia". It still exists in Kings Canyon National Park.

If only they knew that he would help usher in the Federal Reserve the next year...
 
Well i think saying the electoral college enhances states rights is simply not true (hate to disagree with paul). Smaller states certainly don't benefit to any noticable extent. To claim that it acts as a stabilizing buffer also makes no sense as it simply responds to the whims of the public as well. The only thing the electoral college accomplishes is it makes what state you live in far too important for your vote. A republican living in NY might as well not vote at all (if RP doesn't pass the primary i probably won't bother) but someone living 100 miles away in ohio makes all the difference. This doesn't embody liberty to me. As for senators, it may be taboo here to question the constitution too much but i don't think they're necessary. I think that an equal number of people should have an equal number of representatives, regardless of where they live. I better get out my flame suit for this one.

I agree. I had a professor who while explaining the electoral college, made a point of reminding us of the mindset of politicians in that era. At the time there was no mass media, therefore popular vote was a vote with no substance or information behind it. Times have changed. We now have the ability to research legislation and political candidates before making votes. We no longer need a smaller group of people to tell us what's in our best interest.

Furthermore, if we are voting for something that affects the nation as a whole, then it seems that we should be going in the direction the majority of that nation wishes us to go in.
 
I don't think its about whether constituents receive the message or even know about a candidate 100% That's not a problem, its the fact that the candidate will be less likely to address problems specific to that region. Then again are there issues that a president representing a limited government should be addressing at the local levels anyways?
 
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Federal government is suppose to representive of the States and the States are suppose to representive of the People.
 
I'd like to know what is Ron Paul's take on the electoral college? Another member of the forum alluded to this, but has there ever been an instance where a state's electoral votes went to a candidate other than the one that received the popular vote within that state?

He is flat-out opposed to changing this. Ron Paul would never alter anything in the original Bill of Rights. That's blasphomy for any libertarian.
 
Actually now that i think about it i'd really like to know RP's stance on this. I really hope he is for eliminating it though seeing as its one of the most absurd convoluted inventions. If he supports it as a constitutional matter i think it would show too much deference to the founders and not enough individual thought.

I'd also like to know his opinion on instant run-off voting (something he stands the most to benefit from).

How could you oppose somethinf the Founding Fathers wanted? A direct vote would make us a democracy, and give too much power to the federal government. We are not and never will be a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. I love the electoral college and would defend it until the end.
 
Federal government is suppose to representive of the States and the States are suppose to representive of the People.
Not so.

The people are represented in the House of Representatives.

The states are represented in the Senate......

Strike that: 17th Amendment.

The people are represented, again, in the Senate.

Well what do you know, we do have a democracy!


.
 
I
Furthermore, if we are voting for something that affects the nation as a whole, then it seems that we should be going in the direction the majority of that nation wishes us to go in.

SO, if all the people in New Yrok, Florida and California decide that Wyoming should become a nuclear waste site, Wyoming and it's neighbors are just stuck with that decision?

The electoral college is a work of genius.
 
If you really want to understand how the Electoral College works, look at the 1960 World Series.

How do you win the World Series? You triumph by winning more games than the other team. It's not about who gets the most runs over 7 games, but who wins the most games.

If it were just based on runs, then the Yanks would have blown away the Pirates 55-27. But the Pirates took the championship 4-3 by winning more games.

That is: the Yanks had a few blowout wins, but the Pirates had more, consistent wins.

Now, imagine if certain WS games winners were awarded points for each Series game they won instead of just a single tally.

Additionally, imagine some games were worth more points than others.

Imagine that, and you should start to grasp the concept of the EC.

The idea was to have the winner and next President be person with the widest consistent support across the most regions (i.e. states).
 
The trouble that would arise with eliminating the electoral college would be that a few big cities could actually determine the president of the United States. A candidate could promise certain things to a city if elected to sway voters in that area. It would only take a few cities to elect a president.
 
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