Is the US national "debt" an illusion?

[Ronin Truth]

Yeah, the federal government could easily pay off all off its debt just by stealing $11 Trillion from my neighbors. They can afford it.

Yeah, I've got 200 TRILLION$ framed and hanging on my family room wall.

 

[Acala]

I smell Lyndon Larouche.

Hey OP, you sure are playing fast and loose with the idea of "National Wealth". It seems to be your opinion that anything of value within the borders belongs to the government. The government actually shouldn't own ANY land or resources.

 

[Weston White]

But is a total revolution possible? Perhaps it is time to submit to reality, and finally admit that Reagan was right.

Yuppers, Reagen was correct when he had summarized that:

The report said that one-third of all income taxes are consumed by waste and inefficiency in the federal government, and another one-third escapes collection owing to the underground economy. “With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government."

‘Private Sector Survey on Cost Control’ (PSSCC)—The Grace Commission Report

President Roosevelt already attempted the seizure of natural resources by his Executive Order 6102 in 1933, look how well that ended for holders of gold and silver--it was flat-out rabidly unconstitutional tyranny.

The federal government is not entitled, without just compensation and within its strictly defined constitutional powers, to the natural resources of the several sovereign states or to the residents thereof.

And inflation is very real, it is why the average day-laborer no longer has a ready means to establish any worthwhile savings, why their bank accounts bring in less than 1% interest, why their employer cannot afford to give them raises or overtime, why their daily expenses raise month after month after month, why all forms of their government actively seek new creative methods to tax them, why fulltime is now 30-hours, etc.

 

[devil21]

A couple points:

1) Since fiat dollars are created out of debt, if debt goes to zero, so does the "value" of the fiat dollar.

2) The debt itself is an illusion. The collateral put up against the debt ~80 years ago is not an illusion. That collateral is what you wrote about. Land, resources, etc.

3) Put 1 and 2 together to see the big picture. Debt is wiped out, collateral is seized, fiat dollar becomes worthless. Start over.

Or something like that....

 

[heavenlyboy34]

A couple points:

1) Since fiat dollars are created out of debt, if debt goes to zero, so does the "value" of the fiat dollar.

2) The debt itself is an illusion. The collateral put up against the debt ~80 years ago is not an illusion. That collateral is what you wrote about. Land, resources, etc.

3) Put 1 and 2 together to see the big picture. Debt is wiped out, collateral is seized, fiat dollar becomes worthless. Start over.

Or something like that....

Not necessarily. Only relative to some things/services. Value is subjective. It's certainly possible that some people will always value dollars for some reason. Value is subjective! (Austrian econ 101)

 

[Matthew Libman]

When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.

 

[HVACTech]

Not necessarily. Only relative to some things/services. Value is subjective. It's certainly possible that some people will always value dollars for some reason. Value is subjective! (Austrian econ 101)

I will agree that your value is certainly subjective.
and impervious to logic and reason. I might add.

luv you! ~hugs~! lulz.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.

Indeed, there is such a possibility. But a similar risk exists with everything(some more risky than others, of course).

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Last I checked, China has about eleven percent of it and the Fed about 13 percent. A lot is held in retirement accounts and mutual funds.

So, you're saying that the government owes the people about 76% of it?

Does that include what is owed to SSI?

And, who is paid the interest on that? (I know that interest is low, currently)

And...more importantly...can't we take out in government hide if they try to back out (renig?)?

 

[ClydeCoulter]

I would really like to see more intellectual engagement when people post things.

Just because someone has what you think is an illogical conclusion does not mean that they don't have any understanding or knowledge.

I'm not all knowing and understanding, I'm still learning. I do consider some of my beliefs to be solid based on what I can prove, and that is usually not, what I consider, positive understanding but, rather, negative understanding. As in, what is not true or what is most likely not true. And that is based on contradictory evidence, some of which is known or acknowledged.

If we are to find truth, we have to engage others in honesty. If we are to develop sound theories about life, we have to gather, and share, all of the information and considerations that our brothers and sisters have.

The liberal individuals are not the enemy, the neocon individuals are not the enemy. Falsehood and deceit are the enemy. Most of our fellow humans are as in the dark as any of us (yes, the us that means all of the people that are not gods).

 

[Weston White]

When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.

Not necessarily, the more monetization is practiced, the closer the value of that money approaches to zero. Now at this point in time there is no feasible way for the federal government to every repay the interest that is accruing on its massive debt, let alone the debt itself. America is doomed to the daily actions of the PPT--its backdoor digitally automated access to Wall Street power brokers, setting off unceasing coordinated chains of direct-buys at orchestrated lows and direct-sells at orchestrated peaks. This is the new century Ponzi scheme, Main Street is the mark, and our government has its own tentacles embedded into their tills.

Also it is actually more accurate to state: "correlation is not causation, but it sure is a hint."

 

[Weston White]

Does that include what is owed to SSI?

Legally speaking, nothing is owed to SSI, it is simply just another crafty way to seek taxation from a productive populace (the monies collected is stored non-earmarked into a general fund account); the program may be terminated at any time without any further payouts to its recipients, or Congress may increase or decrease those payouts to their liking.

 

[jkr]

 

[devil21]

When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.

That's the same point, just phrased differently. When your resources are turned over to foreigners (even if they live in your country at that moment) you have ceded sovereignty. The only question is how long until it goes to zero.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I would really like to see more intellectual engagement when people post things.

Just because someone has what you think is an illogical conclusion does not mean that they don't have any understanding or knowledge.

I'm not all knowing and understanding, I'm still learning. I do consider some of my beliefs to be solid based on what I can prove, and that is usually not, what I consider, positive understanding but, rather, negative understanding. As in, what is not true or what is most likely not true. And that is based on contradictory evidence, some of which is known or acknowledged.

If we are to find truth, we have to engage others in honesty. If we are to develop sound theories about life, we have to gather, and share, all of the information and considerations that our brothers and sisters have.

The liberal individuals are not the enemy, the neocon individuals are not the enemy. Falsehood and deceit are the enemy. Most of our fellow humans are as in the dark as any of us (yes, the us that means all of the people that are not gods).

http://mises.org/sites/default/files/What Has Government Done to Our Money_3.pdf

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

 

[Acala]

Legally speaking, nothing is owed to SSI, it is simply just another crafty way to seek taxation from a productive populace (the monies collected is stored non-earmarked into a general fund account); the program may be terminated at any time without any further payouts to its recipients, or Congress may increase or decrease those payouts to their liking.

True. There is no contractual right to SS payouts or medicare benefits. But the political cost of not meeting those obligations will be so great that they WILL be met - devalued dollars.

 

[Stratovarious]

A couple points:

1) Since fiat dollars are created out of debt, if debt goes to zero, so does the "value" of the fiat dollar.

2) The debt itself is an illusion. The collateral put up against the debt ~80 years ago is not an illusion. That collateral is what you wrote about. Land, resources, etc.

3) Put 1 and 2 together to see the big picture. Debt is wiped out, collateral is seized, fiat dollar becomes worthless. Start over.

Or something like that....

I'm not too worried, my Dollar is backed by some of the very finest printing presses in the World.

A few years ago they were talking about how many 1000's of lbs in Gold we had in Fort Knox, nobody
had the guts to actually go down and look, the Banking Cartel may have sold if off for Green Fees...
But if it's still there, given today's spot prices, it might not be totally ridiculous to take a stab
at returning to the Gold Standard, or a mix of Gold & other precious metals. (Or a buck for every lie
Obama has come up with from the start of the 2008 campaign.)

Thanks for the heads up yesterday, I haven't figured out how to msg or even comment/rate forum
member posts yet.

 

[devil21]

I'm curious as to why the OP posted this exact same thread on so many forums. Bot account?

 

[Matthew Libman]

I'm curious as to why the OP posted this exact same thread on so many forums. Bot account?

Mmmmmmm bot. Bot bot mmmmmmmm bot. Bot. Bot.

 

[devil21]

Mmmmmmm bot. Bot bot mmmmmmmm bot. Bot. Bot.

If freeing minds is your goal, may I suggest posting that on forums that aren't already full of freed minds?