Is Peter Schiff correct?

I read it stated that 'poverty rates fell by 50% between 1949 and 1961.' Where can I source this if it's true? The writer claimed a researcher friend of his working at the American Enterprise Institute told him.That's why Johnson had to bring in his anti-poverty laws or the government would have been shown to be superfluous.
 
Relative to real purchasing power of the time frames currency, workers in 1920 definately made more than workers today.

It's very difficult to demonstrate that because technological advancements have made it so that even poor folks have access to a lot of beneficial things...BUT...When it comes to being to accrue WEALTH...that ability is much lower than 100 or so years ago.

The amount of HOURS WORKED it now takes to finance a home, eat, transportation...is MUCH higher as a % of total household income then before...THAT'S WITH 2 WORKERS instead of ONE.

To me, that is the easiest way to make that argument.

Supply/demand fundementals are so skewed due to diat, that using nominal price points is damn near impossible to use as proof. I.e the data is MASSIVELY skewed, said data cannot be used to prove nor refute.

Occum' razor:

Look at time spent working and it's ability to generate relative wealth within the context of the time frame in question.
 
Relative to real purchasing power of the time frames currency, workers in 1920 definately made more than workers today.

RealComp.png.scaled500.png


http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/15824.aspx


The amount of HOURS WORKED it now takes to finance a home, eat, transportation...is MUCH higher as a % of total household income then before...THAT'S WITH 2 WORKERS instead of ONE.

To me, that is the easiest way to make that argument.

It's very difficult to demonstrate that because technological advancements have made it so that even poor folks have access to a lot of beneficial things...BUT...When it comes to being to accrue WEALTH...that ability is much lower than 100 or so years ago.

It takes far less labor to produce anything now than it did before.

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/15824.aspx

In 1901, Food, Clothing, and Housing Expenditures made up about 80% of expenditures. Today it is 55%. Not only that, but homes, food, and clothes are all of a higher quality today than they were back then. Houses back then were small, unsafe, made of crap, and had no electricity.

From Thomas Woods in 33 Questions About American History That You're Not Supposed to Ask

Americans need to work far few hours to earn the purchasing power necessary to buy a whole host of goods than they had to in the past. Thus in 1950 American had to work 6 minutes to earn the money that would buy them a load of bread; in 1999 it was just 3 and a half minutes. It took 21 minutes of labor in 1950 to be able to buy a dozen oranges; by 1999 it was only 9 minutes. For 100 kilowatts of electricity, someone in 1950 would have had to work for 2 hours. In 1999 the same person would have had to work only 14 minutes. For a 3 minute coast to coast telephone call, 104 minutes of labor were required in 1950. By 1999 that was down to 2 minutes.

The statistics are even more dramatic if we use 1900 as one of our baseline years. To buy a pair of jeans, for example, someone in 1900 woul have had to work nine hours, as compared to four hours in 1950 and three hours in 1999. For a three pound chicken, a worker in 1900 would have had to labor for 160 minutes. The amounts of time necessary in 1950 and 1999 were 71 minutes and 24 minutes, respectively. It took the average American two years to earn the money to buy a car in 1908. "Today," writes Thom DiLorenzo in How Capitalism Saved America, "a Ford Taurus costs an American worker about eight months of labor, but the car is a technological miracle compared wtih the cars of yesteryear, with standard air conditioning, power seats, safety devices of all kinds, cruise control, a sunroof, tinted glass, a CD player, and so on."


Today we also have access to washing machines, dryers, dish washer, cell phones, computers, televisions, commercially used radios, lots of cars, commercial planes, modern medicine, and a countless other things that did not exist back then.



Repeat after me "Wages equal Marginal Revenue Productivity".
 
Last edited:
RealComp.png.scaled500.png


http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/15824.aspx




It takes far less labor to produce anything now than it did before.

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/15824.aspx

In 1901, Food, Clothing, and Housing Expenditures made up about 80% of expenditures. Today it is 55%. Not only that, but homes, food, and clothes are all of a higher quality today than they were back then. Houses back then were small, unsafe, made of crap, and had no electricity.

From Thomas Woods in 33 Questions About American History That You're Not Supposed to Ask




Today we also have access to washing machines, dryers, dish washer, cell phones, computers, televisions, commercially used radios, lots of cars, commercial planes, modern medicine, and a countless other things that did not exist back then.



Repeat after me "Wages equal Marginal Revenue Productivity".

This does not make sense. My father was able to feed a family of 8 as the sole provider in the 50's & 60's. We paid our own hospital, doctor, dentist, and everything off of a small farm income. When I was in high school, I was able to secure a job at $1.60/hr which would buy 5 gallons of gasoline. And the jobs were quite plentiful. Do high school jobs today pay $18.00/hr? That is what 5 gallons of gasoline cost today. Are $18.00/hr jobs plentiful? Something is not right in your analysis.

I agree with Peter Schiff. In 1900, there was almost no personal debt. People did not have all the high tech material that we have today, but they were financially well off until the Feds crashed the economy in 1929.
 
This does not make sense. My father was able to feed a family of 8 as the sole provider in the 50's & 60's. We paid our own hospital, doctor, dentist, and everything off of a small farm income. When I was in high school, I was able to secure a job at $1.60/hr which would buy 5 gallons of gasoline. And the jobs were quite plentiful. Do high school jobs today pay $18.00/hr? That is what 5 gallons of gasoline cost today. Are $18.00/hr jobs plentiful? Something is not right in your analysis.

I agree with Peter Schiff. In 1900, there was almost no personal debt. People did not have all the high tech material that we have today, but they were financially well off until the Feds crashed the economy in 1929.
Anecdotes mean nothing before actual facts. Wages are not denominated in gasoline. If that were the case, than wages more than doubled in the last few months of Bush's presidency when gas fell from $5.00 to $2.00.

I agree with the actual data, Thomas Woods, and Thomas Dilorenzo (an actual economist).
 
Last edited:
Anecdotes mean nothing before actual facts. Wages are not denominated in gasoline. If that were the case, than wages more than doubled in the last few months of Bush's presidency when gas fell from $5.00 to $2.00.

I agree with the actual data, Thomas Woods, and Thomas Dilorenzo (an actual economist).

Fair enough. To each his own. Dilorenzo studies economics while Peter Schiff makes tons of money at it. Some people teach, others do.
 
Just took a quick glance over the thread, but I like the idea of measuring value in "hours worked". Far less volatile than commodities like gold, oil and fiat currency.
 
Fair enough. To each his own. Dilorenzo studies economics while Peter Schiff makes tons of money at it. Some people teach, others do.

As society produced more, prices were naturally going to fall. I think Thomas Woods and Dilorenzo make an important point in arguing for free market economics. As the free market produces, prices fall and have fallen. One could argue prices would even be lower if the government hadn't created so many bubble and bust cycles and inflation and regulations.

The fact the free market lowers prices as more products are produced doesn't mean the public is "better off". Do you believe the future is always better than the present? Of course it's not, because of government messing everything up. As socialism digs deeper roots the future will look more and more bleak. That's what we're arguing against as supporters of the free market.

SO, Peter Schiff is right. We'd even be more better off today if the status quo of 1914, or whenever, hadn't been corrupted by government over the last 100 years. We're arguing the future would be better if government got out of the way by voting for Ron Paul and yet people on this forum are trying to claim the government hasn't screwed up the last 100 years. What would 2012 look like if libertarians had run the US since 1900?

Let me put this more plainly. If you can't argue the last 100 years would have been better without so much government messing around then how can you claim the next 100 years will be better off without so much government messing around?
 
Last edited:
His explaination is that what Ford workers made in 1914 is the modern equivalent of $2,500 dollars a week, if denominated in Gold. He thus reached the conclusion that they were paid more back then than they are today. That does not matter, because people are not paid in Gold today, nor have they been in a long time.

lol, who cares what you get paid in??

He is talking about purchasing power, and gold is the best measurement of purchasing power over time that we have.
 
Aren't those saying Schiff is wrong implying it? Maybe I'm wrong on that analogy, but my point stands regardless. Schiff is right.
No to every thing you just said. Nobody is claiming that the government has been right the last hundred years, nor has anyone made that contention during this entire topic.

Schiff is absolutely wrong about wages and it has been shown in this thread.
 
lol, who cares what you get paid in??

He is talking about purchasing power, and gold is the best measurement of purchasing power over time that we have.
Gold is not the best measurement of purchasing power.

When having a discussion about historical wages, changing the commodity that wages are denominated in is kind of going to throw things off.
 
I have to say, Schiff is dead wrong about this whole "Ford's workers made more in the 1920s than today" thing he has been going on about for the last month. Wages are not denominated in Gold.

Schiff does not just state that he believes that it is a better way to measure inflation, but also that the workers were paid more back then. Even then, Gold Prices are not the best way to measure inflation. If we did that, it would mean that we have had 500% inflation in the last decade, and that during the early 80s we had 75% deflation.

You mean like the dollar index being 120 in 2000 and 75 today, or being 90 in 1978 and 150 in 1985, or exactly what do you mean?

It takes far less labor to produce anything now than it did before.

In 1901, Food, Clothing, and Housing Expenditures made up about 80% of expenditures. Today it is 55%. Not only that, but homes, food, and clothes are all of a higher quality today than they were back then. Houses back then were small, unsafe, made of crap, and had no electricity.

From Thomas Woods in 33 Questions About American History That You're Not Supposed to Ask

Today we also have access to washing machines, dryers, dish washer, cell phones, computers, televisions, commercially used radios, lots of cars, commercial planes, modern medicine, and a countless other things that did not exist back then.

Repeat after me "Wages equal Marginal Revenue Productivity".

Today it's 55%, but the rest goes to taxes which didn't exist in 1913, like, um, the income tax, for one.

Washing machines, cell phones, TV, etc., all cost money. Statistics prove the bulk of the cost is credit, which means they cost a LOT more than the advertised prices, which would change your statistical %. They are advertised to people like you as "modern conveniences" that increase productivity, but it's just an advertising slogan for the weak. The gains in free time are more than lost to paying for these conveniences, a battle which the majority of Americans are losing, as their net worth is lost to their rising debt burden, both personally and as a nation.

It takes the same amount of time today to mow a lawn as it did in 1920, only back then the homeowner had the tools and time to do it himself, whereas today he has to hire an illegal alien because he's too busy meeting his tax and debt demands (and being glued to one of those 'modern conveniences'... the TV).

Gold is not the best measurement of purchasing power.

When having a discussion about historical wages, changing the commodity that wages are denominated in is kind of going to throw things off.

So, what is the best historical determinant of purchasing power, the USD, which is only 40 years old? That would mean it's you who is changing the commodity wages have historically been denominated in, and only Ben Bernanke would deny the historical value of gold as a measuring stick with as straight a face as you do.

What you and others with similarly empty arguments always fail to mention is that in 1913 there was no income tax and from 1913 to 1930 the income tax was a flat 1%. There was next to zero debt burden, especially none at 15%, the average CC rate. There were also absent a myriad of other taxes, such as, since we're talking about auto workers, there was no gasoline tax in 1920. No one can compare real wages without including interest on debt and TAXES, regardless of what medium wages are paid in.

If you get paid $4,000.00 per month, but -$1,000.00 is income, SS, MC, MC tax, -$31.50 is gasoline tax, -$155.00 is sales tax, -$400.00 is state & local income tax, -$400.00 is health insurance, -$300.00 is rent on your automobile, -$150.00 is interest debt load payment, -$150.00 is phone/cable/ISP costs, etc., etc., etc. It means that in order to pay rent or mortgage you have to put in for a shit load of overtime and send your wife out to work or take in a room mate because you're upside down.

That cuts the comparison multiplier by at least 50% and must be factored into the productivity gains argument, or there is no argument at all.

Bosso
 
Very good post Bosso.

The implementation of the income tax to pay for the interest on the debt product (the USD) is a HUGE cost to society/families that was not there prior.

It's all part of the cost built into this ridiculous system.
 
What you and others with similarly empty arguments always fail to mention is that in 1913 there was no income tax and from 1913 to 1930 the income tax was a flat 1%. There was next to zero debt burden, especially none at 15%, the average CC rate. There were also absent a myriad of other taxes, such as, since we're talking about auto workers, there was no gasoline tax in 1920. No one can compare real wages without including interest on debt and TAXES, regardless of what medium wages are paid in.
...
That cuts the comparison multiplier by at least 50% and must be factored into the productivity gains argument, or there is no argument at all.

Bosso

Great point. Wages must be calculated as a net minus taxes, not gross. Makes the comparisons even more difficult.
 
You mean like the dollar index being 120 in 2000 and 75 today, or being 90 in 1978 and 150 in 1985, or exactly what do you mean?

The USD index measures the dollar against other currencies, not the dollars actual value. I assume that you know that.

Today it's 55%, but the rest goes to taxes which didn't exist in 1913, like, um, the income tax, for one.

Which changes take home pay, but is irrelevant to determining real wages.

Washing machines, cell phones, TV, etc., all cost money. Statistics prove the bulk of the cost is credit, which means they cost a LOT more than the advertised prices, which would change your statistical %. They are advertised to people like you as "modern conveniences" that increase productivity, but it's just an advertising slogan for the weak. The gains in free time are more than lost to paying for these conveniences, a battle which the majority of Americans are losing, as their net worth is lost to their rising debt burden, both personally and as a nation.

It takes the same amount of time today to mow a lawn as it did in 1920, only back then the homeowner had the tools and time to do it himself, whereas today he has to hire an illegal alien because he's too busy meeting his tax and debt demands (and being glued to one of those 'modern conveniences'... the TV).

This really speaks volumes to what an ignorant man you are. The average man is too busy to meet his tax and debt demands today, so he hires an illegal immigrant to mow his lawn? People work fewer hours in the 21st century than they did in 1920. Adding an expeditenture such as mowing a lawn would make the average man's debt issues worse, not better.

Nobody is forced to buy a washing machine. They use it because it takes two minutes to do a week worth of laundry. If done by hand, that would take much longer and be less efficient. Cell phones do increase productivity by making communication easier and giving everyone a hand held computer. Nobody claims that having a TV increases ones productivity; it is just for leisure.

Whether or not these devices save money depends on the individual. In many cases, that is not the intent. You don't buy a TV to save money.

So, what is the best historical determinant of purchasing power, the USD, which is only 40 years old? That would mean it's you who is changing the commodity wages have historically been denominated in, and only Ben Bernanke would deny the historical value of gold as a measuring stick with as straight a face as you do.

Gold is a commodity that lost its link to the dollar 40 years ago. It has seen it's price plumet and sky rocket by 20% in less than a year several times. That does not mean that the dollar has ever lost of gained 20% of its value in a single given year. My IQ just dropped a few points from reading your comment.

The monetary supply and prices are the best determinant of the value of the dollar.

What you and others with similarly empty arguments always fail to mention is that in 1913 there was no income tax and from 1913 to 1930 the income tax was a flat 1%. There was next to zero debt burden, especially none at 15%, the average CC rate. There were also absent a myriad of other taxes, such as, since we're talking about auto workers, there was no gasoline tax in 1920. No one can compare real wages without including interest on debt and TAXES, regardless of what medium wages are paid in.

If you get paid $4,000.00 per month, but -$1,000.00 is income, SS, MC, MC tax, -$31.50 is gasoline tax, -$155.00 is sales tax, -$400.00 is state & local income tax, -$400.00 is health insurance, -$300.00 is rent on your automobile, -$150.00 is interest debt load payment, -$150.00 is phone/cable/ISP costs, etc., etc., etc. It means that in order to pay rent or mortgage you have to put in for a shit load of overtime and send your wife out to work or take in a room mate because you're upside down.

That cuts the comparison multiplier by at least 50% and must be factored into the productivity gains argument, or there is no argument at all.

Bosso

A random set of numbers you just made up? Brilliant.

Again, taxation does not change real wages. Debt has nothing to do with real wages, and can only be taken on voluntarily to begin with.


What a waste of a post. There is absolutely no way to argue that Schiff is right.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top