Is it still anarchists fault Ron Paul isn't winning?

Ron Paul is the "Champion of the Constitution." What is your proposal?

I am guessing something along the lines of:

Let's convince enough people that we don't need a government any bigger than the one outlined in the Constitution. Then once they understand that, they will be in a much better position to understand Voluntaryism.

We all support it to the extent that it moves us towards our goal. As an end goal itself though, no. If we get down to a totally minimal government, and then you want to use violence to prevent us from seceding, then I have a problem.
 
Ron Paul is the "Champion of the Constitution." What is your proposal?

People have a natural tendency towards tyranny. This is compounded by the indoctrination towards tyranny.

The only way to break this cycle, is to form a society of people who have a natural tendency towards liberty (the minority), so that we outnumber the ones who have a natural tendency towards tyranny, and liberty lovers are the ones doing the indoctrinating.

Otherwise we'll just continue the cycle of violence, state, more state, too much state, way too much state, violence, repeat
 
I am guessing something along the lines of:

Let's convince enough people that we don't need a government any bigger than the one outlined in the Constitution. Then once they understand that, they will be in a much better position to understand Voluntaryism.

We all support it to the extent that it moves us towards our goal. As an end goal itself though, no. If we get down to a totally minimal government, and then you want to use violence to prevent us from seceding, then I have a problem.
What is your (Wesker's) proposal?
 
People have a natural tendency towards tyranny. This is compounded by the indoctrination towards tyranny.

The only way to break this cycle, is to form a society of people who have a natural tendency towards liberty (the minority), so that we outnumber the ones who have a natural tendency towards tyranny, and liberty lovers are the ones doing the indoctrinating.

Otherwise we'll just continue the cycle of violence, state, more state, too much state, way too much state, violence, repeat
What is your proposal?
 
Now you are further classifying what you are talking about as "the American State". You do this because your previous comment about the Constitution creating a state was bunk. I rightly pointed out that the state in the context of Rothbard and anarchist existed before the Constitution. You wanted to argue that the constitution created the state so you wrongly say no state existed prior. Now you are back peddling and trying to say you meant to say the American State.

Which is it you are fighting against? the state? OR the American State? Come on now.

Um, the only reason I added the caveat of American State was because you barged in with the British State out of nowhere, as if that were at all relevant to the discussion.

I really shouldn't have to explain this.

As for any 'bunkness', sure thing... whatever you say.

Come on now. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I'll speak out against any and all States until you find me one that is 100% voluntary. Good luck with that.
 
Oh, and I'll speak out against any and all States until you find me one that is 100% voluntary. Good luck with that.

The state by definition is non-voluntary. Specifically, a state is defined as a sovereign political power or community. Extrapolate out the definition of sovereignty, and you'll find force.

Only individuals are sovereign in a free society.
 
Yeah...."minarchy" pretty much means having a "mini" "archy". But conflating minarchy with, I dunno, totalitarianism, is Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Who conflated them? But they are both forms of statism. It's not debatable. I don't need to conflate minarchy (small government statism) with totalitarianism (large government all encompassing statism) to point out they are both forms of statism...it's obvious to anyone not trying to defend minarchy as NOT a form of statism (which it is a from of statism, by definition).

Look, Archon is Greek for "ruler". An-archy is a society without (an-) rulers (Archon). Archons were regional tyrants in early Greek city-states. Notice the word STATE.

If you are a minarchist you are for limited (min-) rulers (Archon). To say that isn't a form of statism is erroneous as hell. Anyone who wants rulers by regional monopolies is by definition a statist of some type or another.

So keep that in mind when defining yourself as a minarchist.

Don't claim I'm conflating two extremes of the same ideology (statism)...I'm not. I'm pointing out they are apart of the same ideology though. That's just the truth.

Now that I've taken that straw man and burned it up, let's point out another fact:

You have an ideology if you're a minarchist, not a philosophy. Anarchism (without rulers-ism) is a philosophy...statism is an ideology. All that follows from that ideology (all types of conservatism, liberalism, progressivism, fascism, etc,etc.) are all ideologies, not philosophies. Outside of the USA libertarianism STILL means anarchism, because the term was first used when a STATE outlawed the term anarchist, and people had to publish things under the word "libertarian" in order to circulate anarchist ideas. In the USA we've bastardized the term to mean anarchism AND minarchism. You may share a TON of similarities with us...but in the end, it's not apart of our philosophy. It fails logically on it's own premises.

I know this hurts some feelings..but if that's what it takes to wake people up, I'll be Captain Controversy...and you can thank me later.
 
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I am guessing something along the lines of:

Let's convince enough people that we don't need a government any bigger than the one outlined in the Constitution. Then once they understand that, they will be in a much better position to understand Voluntaryism.

We all support it to the extent that it moves us towards our goal. As an end goal itself though, no. If we get down to a totally minimal government, and then you want to use violence to prevent us from seceding, then I have a problem.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wesker1982 again.
I'll hook you up later W.
 
Ron Paul is the "Champion of the Constitution." What is your proposal?

Is this the best you have in argumentation? A meme that amounts to an informal logical fallacy (appeal to authority)? Do you always phrase your illogical retorts as rhetorical questions (because we both know you have no interest in the answer even if it's better than your meme)?
 
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Is this the best you have in argumentation? A meme that amounts to the informal logical fallacy (appeal to authority)? Do you always phrase your illogical retorts as rhetorical questions (because we both know you have no interest in the answer even if it's better than your meme)?
It is not a rhetorical question. You have no plan. You spout off as if your philosophy is superior when in fact it is impossible. I ask again. What is your proposal? Mine is to enforce Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America. Sound money, allodial title to land, & peace. What is your plan?
 
Rant online until I change the world!

Really though, I take Rothbard's approach. I will type more about it tomorrow if you want because my eyes burn right now from staring at the screen, but here is the strategy laid out: chapter 15 http://mises.org/books/newliberty.pdf
I will await your elaboration.

Rothbard's "A Strategy for Liberty."
The libertarian creed, finally, offers the fulfillment of the best of the American past along with the promise of a far better future. Even more than conservatives, who are often attached to the monarchical traditions of a happily obsolete European past, libertarians are squarely in the great classical liberal tradition that built the United States and bestowed on us the American heritage of individual liberty, a peaceful foreign policy, minimal government, and a free-market economy. Libertarians are the only genuine current heirs of Jefferson, Paine, Jackson, and the abolitionists.
Sounds a lot like Constitutionalism to me.
 
The state by definition is non-voluntary. Specifically, a state is defined as a sovereign political power or community. Extrapolate out the definition of sovereignty, and you'll find force.

Only individuals are sovereign in a free society.

Hence the sarcasm.
 
It is not a rhetorical question. You have no plan. You spout off as if your philosophy is superior when in fact it is impossible. I ask again. What is your proposal? Mine is to enforce Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America. Sound money, allodial title to land, & peace. What is your plan?

It's obviously a rhetorical question because you won't accept any answer that includes abolishing your beloved mafia extortion, kidnapping, and murder machine. You want to keep it at all costs...because you falsely, inspite of all logic, feel it's not only necessary, but beneficial and benign.

The plan has been stated. Parent children so they are raised to understand the state is immoral. Educate them, and adults, to understand the same. That's 95% of the process. The other 5% is to outlaw the state (the geographic monoplies on roads, money, fire service, police, defense, etc.). Once these monopolies are ended, the state dies. The state is an ideology, not a philosophy. It's simply an idea that needs to end, and then IT functionally ends. You wake up, it's that much closer to abolition.

It's like asking "who will pick the cotton if we abolish slavery?", or "who will wash my clothes and fix my meals if my wife is allowed to work and own property like a man?".

There is nothing impossible about the only non-utopian philosophy. Utopia implies uniformity, something anarchists are dead set against. You want a righteous and moral mafia...that's utopian and impossible.

My proposal is a proposal known for over a hundred years...but you don't seek answers, or you'd look them up online instead of asking us rhetorical questions and posting videos about overly simplistic answers to making your mafia monopoly a thing of the past. My proposal is parenting, education, and allowing competition. My strategy is anarchism without adjectives, and my form of organization and economics is panarchist synthesis. Government should be able to be opted-into and out-of without you physically relocating (panarchism; Voluntaryism). No one should be required to be in any of these social contracts at all, unless they want to, provided they do not harm or defraud anyone or their properties in the act of self governance. It's unethical, illogical, and aggressive to do anything else.

Your Constitution is a codification of a territorial monopoly on mafia, extortion, kidnapping, murder, and any number of services that could be provided by the free market. You love it; but what you love is violence against soveriegns who have not harmed anyone. You fail to care, and continue to claim ignorance of the ramifications of your ideals. Your only retort to any of the philosophy we try to make you face is appeal to authority (or some other informal logical fallacy). We do not want your Constitution...it's a good means to an anarchist/Voluntaryist end...but it cannot be an end unto itself. If it is your end, it is immorality you wish to achieve...the aggression against innocents and the perpetuation of a monopoly on mafia.

You act as if the state doesn't destroy your property rights through tax, by making the state your landlord, the owner of your labor, your consumer choices, your life itself. You do not own what you rent, and the state rents you your property as long as it taxes it. Worse, it can seize it for any reason whatsoever in your Constitution. That's protecting property rights? Peace is initiating force through extortion? Defending you from domestic and foreign initiations of force is achieved by initiating force against you? Orwell had memes for this:

War is Peace. Slavery is Freedom. Ignorance is Strength. Interventions are Humanitarian. Pepper Spray is a Vegetable.

I added the last one, and I'll add two more:

Destruction of Property Rights protects Property Rights. Initiated Force protects you from Initiated Force.

I mean, while we're trading memes, why not, right?

Now I ask you, what is your philosophy? What are your ethics? (More importantly, are you willing to get either? Because you currently have neither.)

Lastly, please stopping quoting an anarchist (Rothbard) out of context to make your sophistic arguments for statism. Your making yourself look like a totally ignorant, or intellectually dishonest, person.
 
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From Wikipedia:

Statism can take many forms. Minarchists prefer a minimal or night watchman state to protect people from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud with military, police, and courts.[5][6][7][8] Some may also include fire departments, prisons, and other functions.[5][6][7][8] Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all encompassing state.[9][10][11][12][13]Limited government, welfare state, and other options make up the middle territory of the scale of statism.[14][15]

Now, it's just one source...but all the sourced materials in this source are well founded. I'm just pointing out that in FACT, minarchism (small government statism) is one side of the spectrum of the ideology statism. It's not apart of anarchist philosophy, and in and of itself is not a philosophy (but is an ideology). Statism is a spectrum ranging from extreme totalitarianism collectivism to mild collectivism bordering on individualism. But make no mistake, it is not individualism (a form of anarchism). Classical liberalism is NOT anarchism. They are very similar when contrasted with monarchism, totalitarianism, or any other forms of extreme authoritarianism...but they are not so similar when we break down epistemology, metaphysics, logic, aesthetics, and ethics. In some of these areas we are similar, in some of these areas we are miles apart, and some of these areas are lacking completely in statist ideology (which is why it's not the same as philosophy).

So, let's stop calling minarchism non-statism. It IS statism. If I can mutate Shakespeare:

Mafia by any other name would still aggress as ruthlessly.

Aggressing in less areas is not the same as not aggressing at all.
 
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It's obviously a rhetorical question because you won't accept any answer that includes abolishing your beloved mafia extortion, kidnapping, and murder machine.

AGAIN, MINARCHY IS NOT FASCISM. Hyperbole, arrogance, and derision are NOT arguments. Where has anyone written anything about 'beloved'?
 
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