Is it still anarchists fault Ron Paul isn't winning?

Which is why everyone should be allowed to keep and bear arms at all times.

It really does get down to force, so let everyone have an equal ability to force their will upon others, and make sure that everyone knows everyone else has this ability.

Things would be a bit chaotic for a while, but once the dust settles all the rest of us would be able to get along just fine, even if we despise each other in our heads.

Not that I despise anyone here, I just agree that arguments over anarchism/minanarchism/libertarianism/constitutionalism are pretty meaningless when we live in a time that the State is about to devour us all.

Agreed to bearing arms, this is why I love L. Neil Smith's fiction... http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=1

Although your post seems to lean a bit towards nihilism, I am for the most part in agreement. Voluntary is the key.
 
And strawman arguments are the next demonstration of not having an effective argument. Anyone who does not agree with me must .... No, they don't must.

It's cute that you think you can wriggle your way out of this one. Statists always hate to be confronted with the disgusting truth of what they actually advocate, because they know deep down how very wrong it actually is.

When you advocate for the monopolistic state, you advocate the use of force to compel individuals to act against their own will. This is only accomplished by goons with guns or the threat thereof. Whether it is the act itself, or the threat thereof, matters not to the reality of the situation.

If you believe in a monopolistic state and the use of force, then stand behind it. If you DON'T, then I'm perplexed as to what exactly it is you are on about.
 
Agreed to bearing arms, this is why I love L. Neil Smith's fiction... http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=1

Although your post seems to lean a bit towards nihilism, I am for the most part in agreement. Voluntary is the key.

I am being a bit deliberately overboard in that I wouldn't necessarily mandate that everyone be armed.

But the idea is to have being armed as common and taken for granted as driving an automobile is.

Yes, L. Neil Smith is an inspiration for this idea as is Robert Heinlein and other authors of speculative fiction.

I also must confess I was big into Robert E. Howard when I was younger too, and still am but not as much.

There's much to be said for just killing everyone who stands in your way when you're a fictional hero that doesn't have to worry about dying since the story is all about you :)
 
The Constitution is the legitimate government.

In the part you were replying to, I was not even talking about whether or not the Constitution had legitimate authority.

Let's try again:

When you make certain arguments for or against government, if you wish to be intellectually honest, you have to respect context. Context determines whether you are talking about violent territorial monopolists who maintain involuntary rule, or voluntary governance. Ignoring context is disingenuous at best. Since you aren't new here, you should know which one it is that we oppose.

Where exactly in this quote do you see an argument for or against the Constitution?
 
It's not a matter of namecalling, it's a matter of truth and accuracy. One is either a statist or they are not; it really is that simple. A statist is simply one who is in support of (to whatever degree) the centralization of power and the monopolization of force and violence. Straw men aside, if you find insult in the truth, then perhaps the truth is something you ought to explore a bit more, that you may better understand why it offends you so much.

Then perhaps you should tell Rockwell that, because he does not agree with you.
 
LMAO, spare us LE. Your condescension and snark towards anyone who dares question the legitimacy of the monopoly state is palpable.

Are you nuts? I don't care if you want to be a flaming anarchist. Knock your socks off. Just do not insult the rest of us who are working to reinstate the Constitution.

I thought we all were wanting to greatly reduce the size and scope of government. If we were to get the federal government back to its constitutional limits, the government would be so small, it wouldn't be recognizable compared to what we have today.

So, how about canning the insults and helping Ron Paul reinstate the Constitution. We can argue about the rest after that is achieved.
 
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Are you nuts? I don't care if you want to be a flaming anarchist. Knock your socks off. Just do not insult the rest of us who are working to reinstate the Constitution.

LE, it seems Constitutionalists are statists these days. "Paypahs please? May I have ya paypahs please?" LOL!
 
They are pulling the strings because they have unlimited money supply (unconstitutional) which buys, a military-industrial-complex (unconstitutional), a police state (unconstitutional), and an indoctrination system (unconstitutional). They have no legitimate authority to do what they do. They are nothing more than brutal rulers in Armani suits. The only semblance of legitimacy they possess is in name only called the executive, legislative, and judicial branches which are limited by constitution and they ignore. They do the bidding of the UN which has no legitimate authority either.

They're able to get away with breaking the Constitution because we're not allowed to opt out of the Constitution.
 
They're able to get away with breaking the Constitution because we're not allowed to opt out of the Constitution.
I seriously do not see any reason for any homeowner to want to opt out. Would you want to opt out of the Magna Carta as well?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvEK7iMHdM&feature=related

I enjoy land and resource ownership, rule of law, and liberty as it offers security, opportunity, and purpose for life.
 
Land law is benign. Counterfeiters must aggress to keep their monopoly. Hate of a benign State seems senseless while stopping the violent aggressors seems like the right thing to do.

Basing land law on the non-aggression principle is nonsense. Land law should be based on land. The non-aggression principle should be used to achieve a peaceful society by adhering to the non-aggression principle ... ie. stop the aggressive counterfeiters.
 
I seriously do not see any reason for any homeowner to want to opt out. Would you want to opt out of the Magna Carta as well?

Even if you feel the document itself is divine, and the Constitution does have its merits, it only has its merits as long as it is obeyed. The threat of secession is what keeps them honest to this document. Because this threat of secession has been, for all intents and purposes, removed, thanks to our Northern Aggressor and several others, we have no means to hold them to their agreement.

When a contract has no means of dissolution, there is no incentive for either party to uphold their part of their deal. But, because they have the monopoly of force, they have the means to uphold our part of the deal. Which is how we got to where we are today.

So even though you may like the Constitution (I do too, for the most part, if it were actually honored), it is always important to leave open the option of secession, in order to ensure that the social contract you agreed to is in fact honored.
 
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If you have the mental and physical ability to govern yourself, then you have the right to govern yourself. If no other person or their properties are harmed or defrauded in that self governance, then logically all external compulsory government is tyranny. --- Me (an expansion and extrapolation of Benjamin Tucker's smaller and less exact quote on the same subject)

I find the above statement impossible (as of yet) to refute in argumentation ethics. It's the clearest way to sum up anarchism, my personal code of ethics and philosophy.

From this we derive the idea that tax is just extortion on the threat of kidnapping (prison).

Voluntary donations are not tax, anymore than voluntary government beyond the individual is tyranny.

Statism is the belief a particular land area should have a monopoly on social contract and law, organized according to a compulsory collective form of government called the "state". This clearly encompasses Constitutionalism, if that Constitution is not wholly voluntary and does not claim land area as it's demesne.

In philosophy, we must first define our terms before arguing from first principles.

From several sources:

Statism (French; étatisme) is a term used by political scientists to describe the belief that, for whatever reason, a government should control either economic or social policy or both to some degree.[1][2][3][4] Statism is effectively the opposite of anarchism.[4][1][2][3] Statism can take many forms. Minarchists prefer a minimal or night watchman state to protect people from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud with military, police, and courts.[5][6][7][8] Some may also include fire departments, prisons, and other functions.[5][6][7][8] Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all encompassing state.[9][10][11][12][13]Limited government, welfare state, and other options make up the middle territory of the scale of statism.[14][15] --- Wikipedia

I find the above definition incomplete, as it fails to mention the geographic monopolistic aspect so necessary to a state.

The nation state is a state that self-identifies as deriving its political legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.[1] The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation state" implies that the two geographically coincide. Nation state formation took place at different times in different parts of the earth but has become the dominant form of state organization.

The concept and actuality of the nation state can be compared and contrasted with that of the city state,[2][3][4] empire, confederation, and other state forms with which it may overlap. The key distinction from the other forms is the identification of a people with a polity. --- Wikipedia

I find the above definition of a nation state to be the best in terms of defining statism, per se. As such, it may be necessary to concede that nationalist statism is actually what we mean when as anarchists or Voluntaryists we use the term "statist".

Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation.

National flags, national anthems, and other symbols of national identity are often considered sacred, as if they were religious rather than political symbols. Deep emotions are aroused.[12][13][14][15] Gellner and Breuilly, in Nations and Nationalism, contrast nationalism and patriotism. "If the nobler word 'patriotism' then replaced 'civic/Western nationalism', nationalism as a phenomenon had ceased to exist."[16][17][18] --- Wikipedia

This concept of nationalism becoming a pseudo-religion is important. It's required to make it's symbols mean anything, beyond simple symbology. It's a form of psychological collectivism taken to it's furthest extreme, where the state is defended with as much fervor as one's religion (and often the two are intertwined concepts). This is why anarchists dislike nationalism (but not patriotism) and find national symbols wholly mentally incapacitating. You'll often find anarchists opposed to such symbols on principle (I am).

For instance, we will ask that our children opt out of the national anthem in schools (as it has nothing to do with education), in hopes they avoid nationalist brainwashing that comes with a day-in and day-out recitation of the pledge for 12-13 years of schooling by the state's curriculum (whether in private or public school). It wasn't until the Supreme Court overruled it that this was legal (to opt-out of the pledge). Until the mid-part of the 20th Century parents could be jailed if their child refused to say the pledge. This case was brought by Jehovah's Witnesses who's religious freedoms were imposed on by the pledge (they can't swear allegiences to governments; either can the Amish). When previously anarchists had philosophically opposed the pledge, they were thrown out of court.

It seems religion overrules ethics in the statist law. I'd argue, as the Judge does in the video, that ethics should always overrule the law of the state. If natural law is not adhered to, then the state's law is criminal.

So, perhaps refering to "statists" of the small government persuasion as such is in fact incorrect. They are nationalist statists. They defend a nation state, not simply a mega-state dynasty, empire, or to other end of the spectrum, simple states without regard to geographic area. Nation states (what we call colloquially "states") didn't occur until about the 5th-4th Century BC in Greece and China, and until the 9th Century AD in Europe. This is because an empire or dynsasty is NOT a nation state...it's a mega-state, also known simply as a state. Nation states are most often the result of a collaped dynasty or empire, that is decentralized enough to be considered wholly national in population and culture (often race and langauage, but not necessarily). The USA was an exception (and there are a few others), where a piece of an existing empire or dynasty seceded before it's collapse, or where a nation state developed decentralized without ever being part of an original empire or dynsasty to begin with.

So, more accurately, we as anarchists and Voluntaryists should call people in favor of small government statism nationalist statists.

At the risk of offending anyone, I'd assert that nationalism and statism are both mental disorders (like addiction), and when combined make for a deadly cocktail in which sociopaths can easily rise to the top of the social hierarchical structure and sadistically destroy a society via the state. At one time religious constructs controlled the states (empires and dynasties)...but once the religious decentralization and de-institutionalism took place (the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason), they were replaced by the nation states as the most powerful human institution (and the most tyrannical).

Someday, hopefully, nation states will be decentralized and de-institutionalized so far that business (not coporations per se, as corporate personhood is a manifestation of the state purely) will become the dominate human institution (and source of most of it's tyranny, albeit a measure less than than states, like states were a measure less than dynasties and empires). From there, it's anyone's guess what will replace businesses as the next most dominate institution...my guess is the internet.

statism : concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry --- Merriam-Webster dictionary


stat·ism
   [stey-tiz-uhm] Show IPA

noun
1.
the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty.

2.
support of or belief in the sovereignty of a state, usually a republic.

--- dictionary.com

As you can see, the above definition takes on the colloquial meaning of republics...which I've already established are actually nation states, not simply "states". This is why using definitions from dictionaries is simply lazy if it's what you base your arguments on. They are usually just colloquialisms, not actual historical meanings.

We'll now define it as one famous nationalist statist defined it:

The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good. --- Ayn Rand

Yes, Ayn, despite the above definition, did argue in favor of a minimalist state with monopoly powers over policing and defense.

One more thing I'd point out...what many think is anarchy is actually anomie.

Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā), has more than one definition. In the United States, the term "anarchy" typically is meant to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.[1][2] --- Wikipedia

Anarchism is generally defined as the political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful,[1][2] or alternatively as opposing authority and hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations.[3][4][5][6][7][8] Proponents of anarchism, known as "anarchists", advocate stateless societies based on non-hierarchical[3][9][10] voluntary associations.[11][12] --- Wikipedia

I'd like to note this is incorrect in one sense; anarchists oppose compulsory hierarchy, not hierarchy more generally. Afterall, sex is hierarchical, boxing is hierarchical, being taught something is hierarchical, and an expert instructing you in your work is hierarchical. Sex is not equivalent to rape, boxing is not assault, teaching is not brainwashing, and expert instruction in work is not slavery. It's dreadfully incomplete to suggest anarchism opposes hierarchy (although this is a nonsense argument left anarchists make when they say the meme "anarcho capitalism is not a form of anarchy...it included hierarchy"...as if thier forms like anarcho syndicalism does not. Anyone who wants to see voluntary syndicalism can look up Mondragon Corporation...you'll find anarcho syndicalists aren't for egalitarianism either, and aren't against hierarchy. They oppose profit not markets, and capitalism not hierarchy in work. They, like most leftist anarchists, contradict themselves constantly. (Present company excepted...I'm aware there are left market anarchists that understand these concepts).

Anomie describes a lack of social norms; "normlessness".[1] It describes the breakdown of social bonds between an individual and their community ties, with fragmentation of social identity and rejection of self-regulatory values.[2] It was popularized by French sociologist Émile Durkheim in his influential book Suicide (1897). Durkheim borrowed the word from French philosopher Jean-Marie Guyau. Durkheim never uses the term normlessness; rather, he describes anomie as "a rule that is a lack of rule," "derangement," and "an insatiable will."[3] -- Wikipedia

Now, having read Durkheim, I can tell you he thought anomie arose in two forms and instances; when there was too little regulation, and too much regulation. When there were no rules (not even natural law which anarchists favor (or it's rhetorical opposite but in practice equivalent; utilitarianism)) it was called anomie, and led to complete disorder, lawlessness, violence, and chaos. When there were too many rules he called this anomie "fatalism", because it led the individual to not value their own life or anyone elses out of desperation felt when no individual choice could be had. In essence, fatalism occurs when people feel they are treated like robots, and they have no free choice. This leads to high suicide rates, murder rates, theft rates, and finally lawllessness, disorder, chaos, and rampant violence of all types. Both forms and causes of anomie have the same result.

So, as you can see, when people (usually statists of any type, but especially nationalist statists) use the word "anarchy" derogatorily, they really mean anomie. I'ts the colloquial meaning of "anarchy" that's been distorted and confused with Durkheim's term anomie. In essence, it shows a fundamental ignorance of philosophy, ethics, and sociology (and somewhat economics, as Durkheim was speaking of Division of Labor when he talked about differing levels of regulation; similar to Marx's concept of "alienation").

I'd also note that Voluntaryism is not anarchism exactly...in fact one of it's earliest known proponents thought of the state as necessary. I believe this was a gentleman who closed his debate with Benjamin Tucker with a line similar to "I am not opposed to the state, as I find it's evil necessary"...or something to that effect. This was early on, and clearly the philosophy has evolved...but it's not the same as anarchism, per se, even though it now wants a stateless society.

I suggest anarchists of all kinds unite philosophically and ethically under anarchism without adjectives, and economically and organizationally unite under panarchist synthesis with other anarchists and Voluntaryists.

The distinction between modern Voluntaryism and anarchism (especially market anarchism):

Where anarchism opposes all social contracts, it does not ban others from voluntarily subjecting themselves to them (however harmful and self destructive they may be). In this sense, the anarchist and Voluntaryist can live side by side, whereas neither can live side by side with the statist (of any type) and their state. Voluntaryists wish to engage in social contracts of their own free will that do not claim geographic monopolies, while the anarchists would oppose the social contracts and only want to be governed by natural law (where harm and fraud are the only prohibited activities, and where no regulation of the individual occurs until those rules are broken).

It's a tough distinction in today's world, as Voluntaryism no longer values the state, but does value voluntary government. This makes it 100% compatible with anarchism, although only 99% identical to it. In order to become full fledged anarchists, Voluntaryists would have to give up the voluntary social contracts and live as completely individual sovereigns. In other words, no collective (like voluntary government) would govern them without them first violating natural law...even WITH their permission to do so ahead of time.

One day I hope the world is civilized enough to only contain Voluntaryists and anarchists who argue about the masochistic nature of the voluntary social contract, as opposed to the sadistic nature of the compulsory social contract; the state.

(Come to think of it, we're moving in that direction...afterall, we're arguing with small government nationalist statists about the nature of ANY compulsory external government, which certainly must be the precursory discussion to the one we'd prefer to have in anarchy/Voluntaryist society.)
 
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But he is winning! He is getting lots of delegates and if it is a brokered convention he does have a shot at the nomination which is all we can ask for right now, a shot.
 
ProIndividual said:
Statism is the belief a particular land area should have a monopoly on social contract and law, organized according to a compulsory collective form of government called the "state".

I may comment on the rest of your post later on, but I'd just like to know where you come up with this definition?

Should I NOT have a monopoly on my own property in so far as what other people can and cannot do while they are on it? What is this "particular land area" that you speak of? How about the space that I personally occupy? For instance, my seat on an airplane? Do I not always monopolize whatever particular spot in the world that my 155 pounds takes up?

It just really seems like this definition is lacking something. Possibly, you are drawing some imaginary boundaries? And this whole "organized according to a compulsory form of government", I mean isn't that just anarchist techno-babble? I mean according to an anarchist, aren't ALL forms of government compulsory? Why the need here to specify "a compulsory form of government"?

Tell me, according to your beliefs, which forms of government are NOT compulsory? Also, I'd like to know, is it possible to adhere to anarchist philosophy, how ever you define it, with a compulsory form of government WITHIN MY OWN HOUSEHOLD. For instance, I am the owner of 10 acre plot of land in which I have a family home. I am the patriarch, my wife, children and their spouses and their children all live in the structures I have built on this land. Living here is compulsory in so far as if any of my rules are broken by anyone, they will be punished. One rule I have is that no one is allowed to speak spanish on the property. Doing so will result in a fine of $100. Failure to pay the fine results in 1 day in solitary confinement.

I have made many decrees such as this. No one agrees to most of them, no one had a say in making them. They protest every night at dinner. There is no organization for this compulsion other than I am the only one allowed to own a gun in order to enforce my rules. Yet they all continue to stay here, paying me my monthly compulsory tribute. Am I "the state"?
 
Oh and regarding nationalist statism. I pointed this out to anarchist on this forum long ago. Especially the ones who love to cite Rothbard. I still wouldn't use the term "statism" with nationalist. What you are getting at though I believe is truly closer to a word that better describes the difference between people who want NO rulers, and people who believe rulers naturally occur even is a free society.

Here is the LR source to the Rothbard article. Out of all of the stuff I have read from Rothbard, thanks to anarchist like Conza, I find this peace to be the most compelling, and probably one of his most enlightening pieces on politics.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard134.html

I
'll give a quick quote that supports my opinion in the post here.

While the State is a pernicious and coercive collectivist concept, the "nation" may be and generally is voluntary. The nation properly refers, not to the State, but to the entire web of culture, values, traditions, religion, and language in which the individuals of a society are raised. It is almost embarrassingly banal to emphasize that point, but apparently many libertarians aggressively overlook the obvious. Let us never forget the great libertarian Randolph Bourne's analysis of the crucial distinction between "the nation" (the land, the culture, the terrain, the people) and "the State" (the coercive apparatus of bureaucrats and politicians), and of his important conclusion that one may be a true patriot of one's nation or country while – and even for that very reason – opposing the State that rules over it.

So calling people who support the constitution any type of "statist" is wrong. We are not supporting "statism". We are supporting a return to our nationalist roots. Which is simply the rule of law encapsulated by the Constitution.

Also, the next paragraph is important too.

In addition, the libertarian, especially of the anarcho-capitalist wing, asserts that it makes no difference where the boundaries are, since in a perfect world all institutions and land areas would be private and there would be no national boundaries. Fine, but in the meantime, in the real world, in which language should the government courts hold their proceedings? What should be the language of signs on the government streets? Or the language of the government schools? In the real world, then, national self-determination is a vitally important matter in which libertarians should properly take sides

Yes boundaries do make a difference. A statist and someone who supports statism attempts to expand the boundaries, while a Constitutiolist, or an AMERICAN seeks to shrink those boundaries back to their basis in the rule of law. That is, back to the individual occupying his/her own property and establish rules for themselves from within.

BOTH ideas are capable of supporting voluntary non aggressive order.

Libertarians are generally what might be called simplistic and "vulgar" individualists.

and

Once we get over simplistic individualism, and this distinction should not be difficult to grasp.

What I mean by both of those ideas, is not statism and Constitutionalism. I mean the idea of having a rule of law that will produce rulers and having a voluntary society with no borders.

I was a little ahead of myself when I said BOTH. You have to decide what your priority is. Is your priority NO government and NO boundaries? Or is your priority voluntary non aggressive markets?

You may eventually get both, but you won't get NO government and NO boundaries BEFORE you get voluntary non aggressive action.

IMO, anarchist think the priority is NO government and NO boundaries as that will lead to voluntary non aggressive markets. I think it's the opposite. You need voluntary non aggressive markets FIRST then the elimination of "the state" or at least the LIMITATION of the state can commence.

You may argue that you get both at the same time. However, I believe you would be relying on an unrealistic view of how the world is, and you'll probably never see it happen that way. One foot in front of the other.
 
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Should I NOT have a monopoly on my own property in so far as what other people can and cannot do while they are on it?

The State has a territorial monopoly attained and maintained through the initiation of force. So it begs the question, how did you acquire your property? Voluntarily, or through the initiation of violence?

Do I not always monopolize whatever particular spot in the world that my 155 pounds takes up?

In a sense, sure. Say if you were in my house standing in a square foot in my kitchen. You could say you monopolize that spot. You temporarily exclusively occupy over the exact spot you are standing. The important part to us is whether or not you obtained this standing room because I allowed you to, or because you initiated violence or the threat of.

You could say I am "renting" you that space. But the point is that I am the legitimate owner of the square foot in my kitchen, so I can rent out or give out rights to it. The State's monopoly is attained and maintained by the initiation of violence. It's territorial monopoly stretches over property to which it has no legitimate claim to.

A better analogy would be if you tried to opt out of my kitchen kingdom by going back to your own property, but when you got back to your property, I used violence to impose the rules of the square foot in my kitchen.
 
How someone can be retarded enough to quote Rothbard and legitimately think he can be used to support their bastardized version of statism would be beyond me.. if I hadn't had any kind of interaction with the source.

There is a difference between nation and nation-state. Geography, people, culture.. nation. OOPS, DON'T SEE A CONSTITUTION OR MONOPOLY OF ULTIMATE DECISION MAKING IN THERE!
rolleyes.gif
 
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