Is anyone here receiving a govt. pension, social security or support payments from govt?

[heavenlyboy34]

Public good or not. Everyone benifits in some form or fasion from our government existing even if those "dollars" could be better allocated or used by an individual. Every dollar you pay into taxes doesn't just poof into nothing (although most do).

/facepalm SMH... You have some reading to do. Pages 3-32 here:http://mises.org/books/economicsethics.pdf " ("Fallacies of the Public Goods Theory and the Production of Security", Hoppe.)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

You're not.

The public-works fallacy is the same as the broken-window fallacy. Just because the State is providing you services does not mean you are benefiting from these services. If you compare the costs (the unseen) to the benefits (the seen) of public works you realize that the State is a net burden on your existence and the only way to liberate yourself from the State is to reclaim your rightful property in anyway you can.

Well-played, sir! +rep

 

[Adrock]

Since the government does not create wealth, the public services provided to a society are provided with wealth originally taken from the society. To say someone is personally gaining from something that was taken from them to begin with is a fallacy.

 

[Aeroneous]

Since the government does not create wealth, the public services provided to a society are provided with wealth originally taken from the society. To say someone is personally gaining from something that was taken from them to begin with is a fallacy.

If everything that was taken from everyone was given back to everyone proportionally, this would be true. Unfortunately the government redistributes wealth and there are people who DO get wealth FROM the state WITHOUT paying in their fair share. It's messed up, isn't it? We pay taxes so that urban inner-city fat mothers with ten kids that don't want to work can talk to their friends on their Obamaphone.

 

[Adrock]

If everything that was taken from everyone was given back to everyone proportionally, this would be true. Unfortunately the government redistributes wealth and there are people who DO get wealth FROM the state WITHOUT paying in their fair share. It's messed up, isn't it? We pay taxes so that urban inner-city fat mothers with ten kids that don't want to work can talk to their friends on their Obamaphone.

Redistribution of wealth is a different subject.

On a macro level public services (roads, police, fire) are paid for with wealth that was taken from the population already. It is like taking water from the deep end of a pool and pouring it into the shallow end. Nothing is gained, just displaced inefficiently. I should of quoted the poster on the other page that was saying that "everyone gets something from the state". I say that is not true because they took it from you to begin with.

 

[Aeroneous]

Redistribution of wealth is a different subject.

On a macro level public services (roads, police, fire) are paid for with wealth that was taken from the population already. It is like taking water from the deep end of a pool and pouring it into the shallow end. Nothing is gained, just displaced inefficiently. I should of quoted the poster on the other page that was saying that "everyone gets something from the state". I say that is not true because they took it from you to begin with.

True. Like many other areas in economics though, micro elements will often screw up the best laid macro intentions.

 

[2young2vote]

I took a student loan from the state for $3750. I'm not even sure why I took it. I have the cash to pay for it this very instant if I need to. I am very fortunate that that is the only debt I currently have until i buy a house.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Redistribution of wealth is a different subject.

On a macro level public services (roads, police, fire) are paid for with wealth that was taken from the population already. It is like taking water from the deep end of a pool and pouring it into the shallow end. Nothing is gained, just displaced inefficiently. I should of quoted the poster on the other page that was saying that "everyone gets something from the state". I say that is not true because they took it from you to begin with.

This ^^^ is important and it bears repeating. Saying that "everyone gets something from the State" (as if you've identified some significant, profound or insightful truth) completely ignores a critical fact, and amounts to a useless half-truth (at best). The critical fact is that the State has NOTHING to GIVE TO "everyone" unless & until it first TAKES what it gives FROM "everyone". The State is NOT a source or creator of anything. It is just a "middle man" who warps & distorts the allocations of goods & services (while "skimming off" a nice big chunk for itself and its cronies/lackeys).

 

[klamath]

That is a falacy of thought. The state CAN create wealth, whether it should is a different argument. If the state takes a million tax payers dollars and builds a road giving business a road to transport goods and the saving from that transport is over a million dollars it is wealth created. If the state builds a hydro electric dam for fifty million dollars and it produces a hundred million in electric power it has created wealth. A state can create wealth however not necessary efficiently. There is vertually nobody not receiving benefits from governemenst in this country. But at the same time there is vertually nobody not receiving hinderance from government as well.

 

[jbauer]

This ^^^ is important and it bears repeating. Saying that "everyone gets something from the State" (as if you've identified some significant, profound or insightful truth) completely ignores a critical fact, and amounts to a useless half-truth (at best). The critical fact is that the State has NOTHING to GIVE TO "everyone" unless & until it first TAKES what it gives FROM "everyone". The State is NOT a source or creator of anything. It is just a "middle man" who warps & distorts the allocations of goods & services (while "skimming off" a nice big chunk for itself and its cronies/lackeys).

Couldn't the same be said for every single transaction that has ever occured in human history? I'm not advocating for more government by a long shot but no one does something for nothing. Even a trade of even value between you and me creates value above and beyond the initial trade.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I took a student loan from the state for $3750. I'm not even sure why I took it. I have the cash to pay for it this very instant if I need to. I am very fortunate that that is the only debt I currently have until i buy a house.

Don't do it! Mobile home (manufactured home) all the way! You do not need to go into debt for housing.

 

[jbauer]

You're not.

The public-works fallacy is the same as the broken-window fallacy. Just because the State is providing you services does not mean you are benefiting from these services. If you compare the costs (the unseen) to the benefits (the seen) of public works you realize that the State is a net burden on your existence and the only way to liberate yourself from the State is to reclaim your rightful property in anyway you can.

Thats true, there are many "services" that you or I are not benefiting from but there certainly are services we are. We "get" something from the taxes we pay. Even if its less effective and more costly then it could be provided otherwise. Heck we even get things from the taxes we don't pay. We all are indebt to our foreign borrowers. At some point those debts become real. Now whether we choose to pay for them is another thread.

 

[otherone]

If so... would you mind telling us what it is (pension, benefits, SS, Medicaid/care, or whatever) - and how do you feel about receiving these benefits in light of the current economic situation (govt. is broke).

Like the Child Tax Credit, or mortgage interest deduction? I get neither, thanks.

 

[jbauer]

Don't do it! Mobile home (manufactured home) all the way! You do not need to go into debt for housing.

You don't need housing either. You could sleep on a bench somewhere. Debt for housing is probably one of the more justifyible debt one could take on.

 

[Adrock]

That is a falacy of thought. The state CAN create wealth, whether it should is a different argument. If the state takes a million tax payers dollars and builds a road giving business a road to transport goods and the saving from that transport is over a million dollars it is wealth created. If the state builds a hydro electric dam for fifty million dollars and it produces a hundred million in electric power it has created wealth. A state can create wealth however not necessary efficiently. There is vertually nobody not receiving benefits from governemenst in this country. But at the same time there is vertually nobody not receiving hinderance from government as well.

Wealth is created when capital is concentrated to create something of worth to a society. This worth is judged by the society by if they buy the product. While you have the state concentrating capital and producing something, you do not have society ever actually placing a value on it through the marketplace. A like example that comes to mind is if the government builds a factory that produces widgets but no one wants to buy them. There is no wealth creation by the state because it cannot sense or respond to what the society deems valuable.

 

[jbauer]

Wealth is created when capital is concentrated to create something of worth to a society. This worth is judged by the society by if they buy the product. While you have the state concentrating capital and producing something, you do not have society ever actually placing a value on it through the marketplace. A like example that comes to mind is if the government builds a factory that produces widgets but no one wants to buy them. There is no wealth creation by the state because it cannot sense or respond to what the society deems valuable.

There's all kinds of value in things "created" by the state. They just don't come to market in the normal sense as a widget. But communites and buinsess do place "values" on things not brought to the market by the private sector all the time.

 

[Adrock]

Couldn't the same be said for every single transaction that has ever occured in human history? I'm not advocating for more government by a long shot but no one does something for nothing. Even a trade of even value between you and me creates value above and beyond the initial trade.

Two people having an informed and free interaction is superior. Both individuals are going the naturally act in their own self interest. It is this self interest that increases efficiency, sets the potential for wealth to be created, and puts a value on the item or service being traded. This value is key on determining if wealth is created.

Even the most honest and competent bureaucrat will always lack the element of self interest in a transaction. This is why government is always inefficient at best and cannot create wealth.

 

[Adrock]

There's all kinds of value in things "created" by the state. They just don't come to market in the normal sense as a widget. But communites and buinsess do place "values" on things not brought to the market by the private sector all the time.

How are they placing value outside of the marketplace? How is the value measured? How do you know wealth is created and it is not just a distortion of the wealth originally extracted to begin with?

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

To me, it isn't really a moral failing to accept aid from the government, given that the whole idea around the welfare system (and even student loans to some extent) is to break both your legs in the form of taxes, inflation, etc. and then hand you crutches. I think the only caveat is that you have an understanding of your plight and work to change it. I myself receive some federal student loans, and my mom is currently receiving unemployment. I don't see any point in starving yourself just to live by principle. There are so many things that contribute to our poverty today that are really out of our control as of now.

 

[Adrock]

Thats true, there are many "services" that you or I are not benefiting from but there certainly are services we are. We "get" something from the taxes we pay. Even if its less effective and more costly then it could be provided otherwise. Heck we even get things from the taxes we don't pay. We all are indebt to our foreign borrowers. At some point those debts become real. Now whether we choose to pay for them is another thread.

The "something" we get in return is the wealth originally taken from the population in another form.