Is Abortion Torture?

[Brian4Liberty]

Abortion is a tortured subject.

 

[Kludge]

So what if it's torture?

Go harm the person yourself if you think they ought to be punished.

I won't stop you.

 

[Meatwasp]

pro choice people are the sallow ones, and a wisp of a wind will always knock them down, as they follow the words of mimics and never think for themselves.

 

[Join The Paul Side]

So your argument is: our opponents are deceitful and compromise their principles to win, so we should too?

How are we compromising our principles by trying to get abortion defined as torture?

We have been trying for decades to get it defined as murder. It's not working. It's time for a new approach that does.

Either you want abortion outlawed or you don't. If you do then you should have no problem with this approach. It could seriously work and it's much better than the failed attempts to overturn Roe v. Wade.

In fact if I'm right, it should nullify Roe v. Wade.

The United States does not torture and if abortion is defined as torture it will have to cease. Case closed. Done deal.

 

[dannno]

pro choice people are the sallow ones, and a wisp of a wind will always knock them down, as they follow the words of mimics and never think for themselves.

Let me tell you a story about John.


John's Boss: John was here yesterday. Today he isn't here. Where did John go?


15 minutes later...


John's Boss: (Phone rings..... ..... ......) Hello? Yes, John works for me, is he ok? No? Oh, he was murdered?? Oh my god... I hope they find out who did it! Ok, yes, good bye.




That was a murder.




A girl having sex, getting pregnant, and having a self-inflicted abortion could also very easily be considered murder, in fact, I don't see how it couldn't to be honest. But do you see the difference here? There is no record of the person being alive. They aren't walking around, they aren't subjected to taxes, criminal penalties, etc. If a pregnant woman trespasses, her baby does not receive a ticket. She is still one person. One with her baby. They are the SAME person both biologically and legally, and maybe even spiritually!! Who knows, maybe babies receive their spirit when they are separated from their mother? How could we possibly know either way?

On top of that, murder charges are meant for people who are dangerous to society, to keep them from harming others. There is absolutely no evidence that a woman who is willing to have an abortion would be willing to kill another individual in cold blood, so to charge a woman who commits abortion with murder is a bit ridiculous.




I'm not pro choice or pro life, by definition. Both sides of the argument are correct. Abortion is murder, and it is also the woman's body.


Here's what I DO know about abortion:


Because of the situation I described above, prosecuting abortions is TYRANNICAL for the simple fact that the government is now getting involved where they have no right.. within a woman's own body. How on earth does one possibly go about prosecuting murders for individuals who are not recorded on file, and frankly, are INVISIBLE!? Don't you see the potential for government to get between the sacred doctor/patient relationship with this as well? What if a mother takes an abortive substance? Is that murder too? Did you know that the most common form of abortion for indigenous peoples is by drinking teas or various plants that cause a miscarriage? Are we going to start arresting women for taking those, too?

The fact is that abortion is wrong, but the state should not be involved. It creates a black market, women's lives and their babies become more susceptible to injury.


The only reason I think medical abortions should be illegal is that I think there are plenty of effective abortive teas and such that are natural and would be much better for all parties involved. It is really lame that medical abortions are so common when there are better alternatives, but the fact is most women would probably take abortive substances rather than go through an expensive procedure if they only knew. But I do think that medical abortion is something encouraged and subsidized for population control purposes, that doesn't mean I favor a tyrannical approach.

 

[RickyJ]

It is murder. Torture usually doesn't involve death.

 

[nate895]

So we should ban cigarettes, alcohol and drugs because a woman could potentially use them during pregnancy and either stunt the growth of her fetus, or cause a mis-carriage?

Or should we instead encourage self-responsibility over what people do with their own bodies before, during and after a woman becomes pregnant?

What does alcohol have to do with murder? You punish crimes when they happen, you can't try to prevent them except through punishing those who have already committed crimes.

 

[Bman]

I don't want our reputation to spread that Ron Paul supporters are murderers.

Some are. I'm pro-choice and pro-death penalty. We're not going to agree on everything.

 

[jjockers]

It is sometimes "effective" to make an allegory between abortion and slavery. Slaves were only 3/4 humans, according to some. A person isn't really a person until they are born. Slaves were property. A child could be considered property of the mother.

I am sure you all can fill in more parallels.

 

[Golding]

We have been trying for decades to get it defined as murder. It's not working. It's time for a new approach that does.

It's probably not working for a reason. Call it what it is, not what it's comparable to. At least there's an argument to be made when you're calling abortion murder. Trying to call it torture has no merit, because it's not as though people are getting abortions to make the baby suffer. You'll just be met with the same counterargument that you meet with the murder comparison -- they'll ask how you can torture something that is not alive. And you'll find yourself in the same old argument of "But it is alive!" -> "No it's not!" -> "Yes it is!"

 

[Meatwasp]

Let me tell you a story about John.


John's Boss: John was here yesterday. Today he isn't here. Where did John go?


15 minutes later...


John's Boss: (Phone rings..... ..... ......) Hello? Yes, John works for me, is he ok? No? Oh, he was murdered?? Oh my god... I hope they find out who did it! Ok, yes, good bye.




That was a murder.




A girl having sex, getting pregnant, and having a self-inflicted abortion could also very easily be considered murder, in fact, I don't see how it couldn't to be honest. But do you see the difference here? There is no record of the person being alive. They aren't walking around, they aren't subjected to taxes, criminal penalties, etc. If a pregnant woman trespasses, her baby does not receive a ticket. She is still one person. One with her baby. They are the SAME person both biologically and legally, and maybe even spiritually!! Who knows, maybe babies receive their spirit when they are separated from their mother? How could we possibly know either way?

On top of that, murder charges are meant for people who are dangerous to society, to keep them from harming others. There is absolutely no evidence that a woman who is willing to have an abortion would be willing to kill another individual in cold blood, so to charge a woman who commits abortion with murder is a bit ridiculous.




I'm not pro choice or pro life, by definition. Both sides of the argument are correct. Abortion is murder, and it is also the woman's body.


Here's what I DO know about abortion:


Because of the situation I described above, prosecuting abortions is TYRANNICAL for the simple fact that the government is now getting involved where they have no right.. within a woman's own body. How on earth does one possibly go about prosecuting murders for individuals who are not recorded on file, and frankly, are INVISIBLE!? Don't you see the potential for government to get between the sacred doctor/patient relationship with this as well? What if a mother takes an abortive substance? Is that murder too? Did you know that the most common form of abortion for indigenous peoples is by drinking teas or various plants that cause a miscarriage? Are we going to start arresting women for taking those, too?

The fact is that abortion is wrong, but the state should not be involved. It creates a black market, women's lives and their babies become more susceptible to injury.


The only reason I think medical abortions should be illegal is that I think there are plenty of effective abortive teas and such that are natural and would be much better for all parties involved. It is really lame that medical abortions are so common when there are better alternatives, but the fact is most women would probably take abortive substances rather than go through an expensive procedure if they only knew. But I do think that medical abortion is something encouraged and subsidized for population control purposes, that doesn't mean I favor a tyrannical approach.

I still think it would be interesting to put a woman who had an abortion on a lie detector. Ask her if she ever committed a crime?, Yes some might not feel they have but some where in a woman's makeup when you are pregnant an entity is formed and even though they don't realize it they it is there.
I knew a woman who is happily married with three nice sons, but she had an abortion earlier in her life and she told me she always feels like she should have four children. Now why would that be? It is interesting and would make a great study in your college classes.

 

[Objectivist]

pro choice people are the sallow ones, and a wisp of a wind will always knock them down, as they follow the words of mimics and never think for themselves.

Reality is that there is no "Pro choice" only a Pro Death position but saying it that way lightens the impact of reality. Did the child have a choice? No, that's why parents are held responsible for the actions of the little brats.

 

[nate895]

It is sometimes "effective" to make an allegory between abortion and slavery. Slaves were only 3/4 humans, according to some. A person isn't really a person until they are born. Slaves were property. A child could be considered property of the mother.

I am sure you all can fill in more parallels.

Children used to be considered chattel, but that status has evolved in recent years. A child is now more of a ward of the parents. They aren't totally free, but they aren't there at the mercy of their parents either.

 

[Meatwasp]

Gee Mothers day just passed, why didn't you all say to her "THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BE BORN"

 

[Objectivist]

Gee Mothers day just passed, why didn't you all say to her "THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BE BORN"

You are making an assumption that people are happy to be here.

 

[Meatwasp]

You are making an assumption that people are happy to be here.

Well for heavens sake aren't you??

 

[Objectivist]

Well for heavens sake aren't you??

That's a loaded question seeing you brought heaven into the equation.

 

[Bman]

Gee Mothers day just passed, why didn't you all say to her "THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BE BORN"

See she did have a choice. Abortion is not a governmetn issue. It would seem such but there will always be a conflict of interest. It's a waste of time and resources. And will not accomplish anything other than new criminals for us to pay for.

 

[Meatwasp]

See she did have a choice. Abortion is not a governmetn issue. It would seem such but there will always be a conflict of interest. It's a waste of time and resources. And will not accomplish anything other than new criminals for us to pay for.

I am really beginning to wonder if Murder should be a government issue. Maybe we should start vigilantes again. Sarcasm.

 

[Bman]

I am really beginning to wonder if Murder should be a government issue. Maybe we should start vigilantes again. Sarcasm.

We all draw lines. Should masturbation be a criminal offense? Isn't sperm a potential human life form?

What about killing. It is necassary to eat meat. Should it be aright for us to kill for food? And if it is should abortions be allowed if we eat dead fetus's?