Is a constitutional monarchy better than a constitutional republic?

i suppose he/she would be elected similarly to how the president is elected.

Yeah, but the succession would probably become hereditary, and would certainly be arbitrary. I'm not interested in monarchy. At the same time a hereditary monopoly on the use of force is no worse than a democratically condoned one.
 
Yeah, but the succession would probably become hereditary, and would certainly be arbitrary. I'm not interested in monarchy. At the same time a hereditary monopoly on the use of force is no worse than a democratically condoned one.

yes but in a constitutional monarchy, the constitution could stipulate that the position of monarch be voted in rather than inherited.

I mean, yes, knowing how power corrupts, I'm sure we would eventually be able to connect dots between one monarch and the next. But that's not really a problem we avoid in the current constitutional system we have now.
 
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The monarch would be protected by whom?

Said agents of the monarch would be tied down by what? The people, ostensibly, but let's be realistic on how well that would work out. That is to say, that so long as the people are relatively comfortable they'd tolerate oppression of anyone short of, though often, themselves.

Establishing a dictator, which is what a monarch is, is not the way to freedom no matter how peachy the leader in question speaks. It is a road to totalitarianism.

The answer to the failure of democracy is not to further concentrate the power. After all, it is hardly a debatable point that power corrupts even the most well intended (and most kings, regardless of the rhetoric needed to quell insurrection, are not well intended).

The answer to the question proposed would not be whether or not a monarch is preferable to a democracy or even supposed republic but whether or not people are born with certain rights that cannot be justly superseded by any ruling authority. The answer to that is, no. I don't care if it's one person ruling another or 300 million ruling over a single person.

No. Hell no. No.

I find it amazing that people have justified a king, or offered excuses as to how it would be beneficiary to what we have now as if said 'benevolent' ruler would remain in power forever. The people are hardly aware of what occurs around them. They simply go through the motions. A king, especially an absolute one (as would result by a king being supposedly restrained by some sort of piece of paper), certainly would not be a gain of any sort upon society. In fact, it would impede progress towards freedom and result in some of the most draconian and authoritarian practices ever devised.

The issue is not whether the ruler will be benevolent vs brutal. The issue is whether or not a constitutional document meant to govern the way a single monarch rules is better than what we have now, which is a constitution that governs the way in which many politicians rule. It seems to me that applying a Constitution meant to limit the powers of a governing body makes more sense if that governing body consists of as few people as possible.

I guess the idea isn't really based on whether or not we have a friendly guy in place. We're just assuming that should a governing body adhere to a constitution, it seems preferable to have as few people in government as possible. In a monarchy, if the ruler does not adhere to the constitution, there is no question who to blame and who needs to be replaced in order to fix the problem (if the problem of people in power not adhering to a constitution can ever be fixed).

What I'm trying to understand is this: If you have a founding document that outlines specific powers granted to a government, what is the point of having that government comprised of so many rulers? Why not limit the amount of rulers? We see how the president blames Congress for every problem in the country, or vice versa. We see how both political parties blame each other for everything. It is a circus. Not to mention most politicians are slime balls. Just more people in government with more ideas on how to violate the constitution. It is hard to hold any single person accountable since so many share the blame.

The less politicians the better in my opinion. Seems as though a Constitutional Monarchy circumvents many of these issues. Now, is a Constitutional monarchy the society I want to live in? Hell no. To me there is no viable alternative to freedom. But for the sake of a philosophical discussion - and hypothetically speaking - I do think that among constitutions, monarchy is the best.
 
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yes but in a constitutional monarchy, the constitution could stipulate that the position of monarch be voted in rather than inherited.

I mean, yes, knowing how power corrupts, I'm sure we would eventually be able to connect dots between one monarch and the next. But that's not really a problem we avoid in the current constitutional system we have now.

It could stipulate such, and such stipulations can be forgotten. True, we could have an Antonine period but eventually such power is going to be inherited. No use going backwards to monarchy. I acknowledge that the current system operates in a similarly arbitrary fashion.
 
The issue is not whether the ruler will be benevolent vs brutal. The issue is whether or not a constitutional document meant to govern the way a single monarch rules is better than what we have now, which is a constitution that governs the way in which many politicians rule. It seems to me that applying a Constitution meant to limit the powers of a governing body makes more sense if that governing body consists of as few people as possible.

I guess the idea isn't really based on the fact that we have a friendly guy in place. We're just assuming that should a governing body adhere to a constitution, it seems preferable to have a few people in government as possible. In a monarchy, if the ruler does not adhere to the constitution, there is no question who to blame and who needs to be replaced in order to fix the problem (if the problem of people in power not adhering to a constitution can ever be fixed).

What I'm trying to understand is this: If you have a founding document that outlines specific powers granted to a government, what is the point of having that government comprised of so many rulers? Why not limit the amount of rulers? We see how the president blames Congress for every problem in the country, or vice versa. We see how both political parties blame each other for everything. It is a circus. Not to mention most politicians are slime balls. Just more people in government with more ideas on how to violate the constitution. It is hard to hold any single person accountable since so many share the blame.

The less politicians the better in my opinion. Seems as though a Constitutional Monarchy circumvents many of these issues. Now, is a Constitutional monarchy the society I want to live in? Hell no. To me there is no viable alternative to freedom. But for the sake of a philosophical discussion - and hypothetically speaking - I do think that among constitutions, monarchy is the best.

+rep :) Excellent. I would've written something very similar if I had the time. ~hugs~
 
It seems to me that applying a Constitution meant to limit the powers of a governing body makes more sense if that governing body consists of as few people as possible.

The less people involved, the closer the game can be played. Merely limiting the amount of rulers and not diminishing the power accumulated in their hands is futile. Even though you say culpability could be easily discerned, that isn't entirely true. Even a monarchy, so far as it is a government, requires an apparatus to run. The monarch would be but the head of this apparatus and could blame could be directed, subversively if necessary, at his ministers.

I'm not saying it is stupid to say: monarchy is the best among governments. Plato seemed to believe that and he wasn't dumb. I just have an almost involuntary reaction against the very idea of monarchy--I have no idea why. Maybe my people have always been peasants or something.
 
The less people involved, the closer the game can be played. Merely limiting the amount of rulers and not diminishing the power accumulated in their hands is futile. Even though you say culpability could be easily discerned, that isn't entirely true. Even a monarchy, so far as it is a government, requires an apparatus to run. The monarch would be but the head of this apparatus and could blame could be directed, subversively if necessary, at his ministers.

I'm not saying it is stupid to say: monarchy is the best among governments. Plato seemed to believe that and he wasn't dumb. I just have an almost involuntary reaction against the very idea of monarchy--I have no idea why. Maybe my people have always been peasants or something.
Probably lifelong exposure to the propaganda and revisionist history you were exposed to your whole life. I had the same cognitive dissonance myself until I began reading alternative, dissenting opinions and considering them that I changed my mind. All the nonsense we're filled with by the schools and media are designed by propagandists to purposely manipulate the minds of people at the most vulnerable period of their lives (childhood).
 
Probably lifelong exposure to the propaganda and revisionist history you were exposed to your whole life. I had the same cognitive dissonance myself until I began reading alternative, dissenting opinions and considering them that I changed my mind. All the nonsense we're filled with by the schools and media are designed by propagandists to purposely manipulate the minds of people at the most vulnerable period of their lives (childhood).

I don't think that is quite it, unless I am stupid. I read a lot of different things. I'm not stupid, I don't think. I'm looking at the question mostly through the lens of imperial rome.
 
I don't see how a Constitution would restrict a monarch any better than it restricts any other form of government. Monarchs can delegate authority, creating regulatory bodies. Monarchy vs democracy is a matter of incentives and risks.
 
The less people involved, the closer the game can be played.

I agree. I actually think the trouble started with the Reapportionment Act of 1929. The farther we get away from those who represent us, the more they rely on the big money lobbyists. Why do I believe my representative [house] cares about me? He has 700,000+ people in his district. The Constitution says no more than one rep for 30,000. I actually believe that the reason our Congress is so easily bought is because there are only 435 in the House (so half of that is needed).


http://www.thirty-thousand.org/
 
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What I'm trying to understand is this: If you have a founding document that outlines specific powers granted to a government, what is the point of having that government comprised of so many rulers? Why not limit the amount of rulers? We see how the president blames Congress for every problem in the country, or vice versa. We see how both political parties blame each other for everything. It is a circus. Not to mention most politicians are slime balls. Just more people in government with more ideas on how to violate the constitution. It is hard to hold any single person accountable since so many share the blame.

So, we 'elect a king' from New York and the Left Coast and the entire Heartland are robbed for the benefit of New Englanders to the point where we truly discover what 'two wolves and a sheep discussing dinner' truly means without even having democracy. Great.

The less politicians the better in my opinion. Seems as though a Constitutional Monarchy circumvents many of these issues. Now, is a Constitutional monarchy the society I want to live in? Hell no. To me there is no viable alternative to freedom. But for the sake of a philosophical discussion - and hypothetically speaking - I do think that among constitutions, monarchy is the best.

Amusing that you're inferring that a constitution and liberty are mutually exclusive when we had just that combination for a couple of centuries.

+rep :) Excellent. I would've written something very similar if I had the time. ~hugs~

And the talent.
 
Interesting tid-bit: From a 1978 edition of 'The People's Almanac #2.'

1786:

Having determined that what the United States needed was a king, a powerful group of American politicians - James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton, and Nathaniel Gortham, president of the Continental Congress, among others -wrote to 50-year-old Prince Henry of Prussia, younger brother of Frederick the Great, and invited him to become king of the United States ( at the suggestion of Baron von Steuben). Prince Henry vacillated, and by the time he gave his uncertain reply the Americans had decided to have an elected president rather than a constitutional monarch. This may have been fortunate for the American patriots, who had not been aware that Prince Henry was one of the most debauched and notorious homosexuals in all Europe.
 
Despotism would be even harder to purge in a monarchy, particularly one that grew up through the bureaucracy and was entrenched by the time it became overt. Not saying despotism is really easy to purge here, but we have at least some hope for monumental changes come 2016. In a monarchy we'd be all, "well, he might die in 30 years..."
 
Despotism would be even harder to purge in a monarchy, particularly one that grew up through the bureaucracy and was entrenched by the time it became overt. Not saying despotism is really easy to purge here, but we have at least some hope for monumental changes come 2016. In a monarchy we'd be all, "well, he might die in 30 years..."

Peasants got rid of despotism in Russia with the equivalent of the tools we have. Ditto for most popular overthrows. And I assure you there will be no "monumental" change in 2016. The system is designed to prevent that. In a hereditary monarchy, you just kill the monarch and be done with the regime. See the lessons of the Russian Revolution WRT the czar.

WRT the problem of "waiting 30 years" for regime change, you get the same thing here, but even worse. There are institutionalized tyrannies here going back to the civil war and Hamilton's Curse. Freedom>Monarchy>republicanism>democracy.
 
WRT the problem of "waiting 30 years" for regime change, you get the same thing here, but even worse. There are institutionalized tyrannies here going back to the civil war and Hamilton's Curse. Freedom>Monarchy>republicanism>democracy.

That's as may be. But as I have said before, I have tasted freedom in my lifetime, here, in a republic, under a Constitution. I don't know why the kids around here are on this kick of denying that's possible when I have seen it work with my own eyes. Sure, the level of liberty in the nation has waxed and waned before, generally in proportion to how much respect most people have (and how much knowledge most people have of) that very Constitution. But I have tasted freedom in a republic, and I know that 'liberty' and 'republic' are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Now, call me a liar to my face or be a little more honest with us and yourself. Or is that too much to ask?
 
The issue is not whether the ruler will be benevolent vs brutal. The issue is whether or not a constitutional document meant to govern the way a single monarch rules is better than what we have now, which is a constitution that governs the way in which many politicians rule. It seems to me that applying a Constitution meant to limit the powers of a governing body makes more sense if that governing body consists of as few people as possible.
Okay. That is a fair enough point. My point is not so much a philosophical one as much as it is an absolute one. That is, a piece of paper can restrict or chain down no government if the people are dumbed down to such a point as being unable to even comprehend the Preamble (I'm minded to refer to "Animal Farm"). It is also an absolute truth, and I understand that you aren't even getting into this part of the equation (but still), that the power vested to one individual, being as concentrated as it would be, would in no time lead to executive decrees, a military dictatorship, and shortly thereafter the disappearance of political rivals. To remain in power a few (thousand, or million, one by one) would be made examples of. Now you might say that this has no bearing on your philosophical argument of whether or not one 'ruler' is better than 535 (or however many). I'd disagree.

Not simply that but if I were to argue against your point, I'd simply say that I want as many 'rulers' as possible. That is to say, I want 320,000,000 people ruling their own lives. We can all be governed by a piece of paper, if people so wish to be, and so long as said rulers respect the sovereignty of other rulers, as in, they respect each other's rights, I don't much care what governs them, be it God, or a Constitution, or even simply not having a bastardized moral compass. See, you are looking at this from the angle of, "Well, everyone would know who to blame (should there only be one ruler)." Have you not considered what a blessing it may be to have such a number of incompetent, power grubbing, whores in D.C. (if we are to have any, that is) each going after their own interests? I wish there was another 130 of them, separate party from the big two. They might not ever pass anything if that were case. At the least, one could see that they well could pass a lot less harmful measures than if it is simply one person saying, "Interstate Commerce; Give me your shit" (and the people scratching their heads and turning to their neighbors and saying, "Interstate commerce!? What's that?")

I guess the idea isn't really based on whether or not we have a friendly guy in place. We're just assuming that should a governing body adhere to a constitution, it seems preferable to have as few people in government as possible.
Should the governing body adhere to a Constitution, it would not matter if it was one or a million. Considering that they don't, won't and a piece of paper cannot, tie down governmental overreach, I'm going to reject the notion that one 'ruler' is better than many (squabbling over this or that). Besides, if they followed the Constitution, as your speculation supposes they will, it would not matter.

In a monarchy, if the ruler does not adhere to the constitution, there is no question who to blame and who needs to be replaced in order to fix the problem (if the problem of people in power not adhering to a constitution can ever be fixed).
Well you're starting to get at the root of the problem. I do not think it can be. Especially when the people supposedly living under the authority of said document cannot read nor comprehend said document.

You are ignoring the propaganda tactics that have been studied and mastered especially over the last hundred years. There will always be a scapegoat as to why things are the way that they are. A powerful speaker, nationalistic rhetoric, the people would eat that shit up. Aside from the fact that said ruler would have some sort of following or base regardless. Those who benefit from his rule would support him. It would take revolution after revolution to try to get back on the path to freedom if the momentum wasn't retarded permanently.

What I'm trying to understand is this: If you have a founding document that outlines specific powers granted to a government, what is the point of having that government comprised of so many rulers? Why not limit the amount of rulers? We see how the president blames Congress for every problem in the country, or vice versa. We see how both political parties blame each other for everything. It is a circus. Not to mention most politicians are slime balls. Just more people in government with more ideas on how to violate the constitution. It is hard to hold any single person accountable since so many share the blame.
One, they aren't supposed to be rulers. And if said Constitution, written, signed, and ratified, by no living person, were to offer up my sovereignty as an individual, before I am even born, simply because of the parameters of where I am to be born, to any ruler, be it 1 or 535, said document could be pissed upon for what I care.

The people have been dumbed down by a complicit media (which if you had a monarch, much the same would occur... that is, state sponsored 'news') and entertained. They have been taught all they know by a system designed to keep those in power in power. It isn't because there are so many of them that they cannot be held accountable. It's that the people are unaware of their crimes. It's that the people are still comfortable.

The less politicians the better in my opinion. Seems as though a Constitutional Monarchy circumvents many of these issues. Now, is a Constitutional monarchy the society I want to live in? Hell no. To me there is no viable alternative to freedom. But for the sake of a philosophical discussion - and hypothetically speaking - I do think that among constitutions, monarchy is the best.
The less politicians the better, indeed. Except for when there are so many of them that nothing can be accomplished, or when people, generically referred to as 'politicians' (or 'rulers'), govern themselves.

I mean I get what you're saying and in a strict philosophical discussion a lot of it makes sense. The issue with the world is that it is not defined mathematically or scientifically. What I mean is, there are human actions, group think phenomena, emotion based reactions etc. I could not perfectly define what would occur but I sure as hell could paint a picture. And it isn't one of one ruler taking it upon himself to follow the Constitution. For starters, hardly a pair would agree on precisely what the Constitution means. Does this monarch feel the Constitution is a living document or does he feel it is a rigid document? Do the people care?

Anyways, just a few of my thoughts on the matter.
 
Amusing that you're inferring that a constitution and liberty are mutually exclusive when we had just that combination for a couple of centuries.
Couple of centuries?

I, uh, I could maybe give you a generation... but even that would be generous.
 
Couple of centuries?

I, uh, I could maybe give you a generation... but even that would be generous.

I thought you lived west of the Mississippi.

Yeah, there have been localities here and there with their blue laws and their beliefs in theocracy and this and that. But except during the prohibition and socialism that peaked during the Wilson administration, there were always pockets to escape to back then (when Washington was a small town).

I mentioned waxing and waning. It happened. And I'm sick to death of this waxing phase we're in now. But any way you slice it, considering 'freedom' a political system analogous to monarchy, democracy and republics is pretty damned silly. Even if you have yet to figure out that the 'voluntaryist society' as I've most often seen it described is actually a small republic.
 
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That's as may be. But as I have said before, I have tasted freedom in my lifetime, here, in a republic, under a Constitution. I don't know why the kids around here are on this kick of denying that's possible when I have seen it work with my own eyes. Sure, the level of liberty in the nation has waxed and waned before, generally in proportion to how much respect most people have (and how much knowledge most people have of) that very Constitution. But I have tasted freedom in a republic, and I know that 'liberty' and 'republic' are not mutually exclusive concepts.
I would argue you simply experienced the illusion of freedom. I'm fairly certain you're not old enough to have good memories of a time before an income tax or property tax or suffer the effects of inflation (a hidden tax)-just to name a few. If you have to pay a tax (or "fee" if you want to look at it that way) just to exist as a human interacting with others, you aren't free. You're a renter at best and a serf at worst.


Now, call me a liar to my face or be a little more honest with us and yourself. Or is that too much to ask?

I doubt you're a liar at all. You strike me as well-intentioned and endeavor toward honesty in debate a generally. You just work from your own understanding of words like "freedom" and tell the truth from your perspective. (the Newspeak sense of the words, as I call them.)
 
Interesting tid-bit: From a 1978 edition of 'The People's Almanac #2.'

1786:

Having determined that what the United States needed was a king, a powerful group of American politicians - James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton, and Nathaniel Gortham, president of the Continental Congress, among others -wrote to 50-year-old Prince Henry of Prussia, younger brother of Frederick the Great, and invited him to become king of the United States ( at the suggestion of Baron von Steuben). Prince Henry vacillated, and by the time he gave his uncertain reply the Americans had decided to have an elected president rather than a constitutional monarch. This may have been fortunate for the American patriots, who had not been aware that Prince Henry was one of the most debauched and notorious homosexuals in all Europe.
Now i have an image of a Hamilton portrait with rainbow colors stuck in my head.
 
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