Intellectual Property rights

Here's some quick reading for the IP folks. Chew on this for a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623



Intellectual Property as we know it didn't even come to fruition until the mid to late 19th Century, and wasn't commonplace until well into the 20th.

The internet didn't even come to fruition until the mid to late 20th Century, and wasn't commonplace until just into the 21st...

Arguments and statements like these mean absolutely nothing. Yes, we exist in time, and as a consequence of that fact, some things happen before others, others happen after others...

Certain Mathematics wasn't discovered/invented until the 20th century - does that invalidate them? Do we know more or less now?
 
Here's the point I was trying to make boiled down:

Someday in the future, there will be the technical possibility to restrict the copying of information through whatever brainstorm you could come up with. Pretend for a minute that you don't have the ability to use it without agreeing to a "copyright statement." Use your imagination. Your #2 can't happen...what now? You're right, there's no contract between you and the producer, but you can't use it either.

That'll be fine.
 
Lol, I skipped over it because we're operating on two different planes of debate, which usually happens in the IP debate (among other controversial issues). Unless both parties come to some mutual fundamental agreement about what property is, it's quite difficult to address each other's points. It's like . . . a foreign language.

But I don't understand the concept of how IP creates monopolies. To say that, you'd have to argue that only one person ever has the power to create a new thing, which is not true. If someone else creates invention A, then you can still create a totally different invention B. The possibilities are limitless. IP doesn't grant you exclusive access to a market. It grants you protection of a product you created to sell in that market. If I build a DVD player, it doesn't mean I own the entertainment electronics market. I own the design of my DVD player. Anyone else has the same exact right that I do to tap the entertainment electronics market, BUT with their own inventions.

Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out where this utter paradox came into play.

A lot of people are operating on different planes here...

Most on the anti-IP side want to remain within the boundaries of discrediting IP as "property," defeat that strawman, and go forth and steal other people's work.

The point I've been trying to make is that the producers of certain items, be it music, computer games, software, or anything else that is an "idea" can get around the anti-IP argument by creating contractual restrictions on a user's license. We've all seen these when we install software on our computers...they are called "EULAs."

There is no paradox...both Apple and IBM can create computers...

Both Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page can write music...

Neither one can market the unique products of each other's time and energy under their own name.
 
Do we not believe that the fruits of one's labor should be protected?

We don't just protect tangible things. I cannot touch your 'right to free speech', but yet we have laws protecting it. Should we do away with the laws then, because there is nothing physical to protect?

Goddamn that's a good point.
 
[facepalmpic]

CoolStoryBro.jpg
 
Typical blindered view you hold to. Your stand is that artists can go do something else for a living as they have no compensation available for pursuing the exercise of their God given talents.

Rev9

Oh look! It's the ad hominem Avenger!

Are you gonna start telling us all how you're gonna start kicking our butts, now?!

:rolleyes:
 
The internet didn't even come to fruition until the mid to late 20th Century, and wasn't commonplace until just into the 21st...

Arguments and statements like these mean absolutely nothing. Yes, we exist in time, and as a consequence of that fact, some things happen before others, others happen after others...

Certain Mathematics wasn't discovered/invented until the 20th century - does that invalidate them? Do we know more or less now?

Mathematical achievements was build upon previous achievements. Mathematics doesn't magically appear into existence.
 
Can you point out to me what property you have lost if I replicate one of your recipes or ideas? Please do not tell me you believe you have a right of monopoly and profit through the exclusion of the rest of society to do with their property as they wish -- and this means replicating their own property to be configured in a matter matching yours. It's simply astonishing how someone who says they grasp private property makes this fundamental and tragic leap. IP has never been about property, period.

No, because like you and I have already pointed out, IP is not property. Obviously no one loses "property" if you replicate a series of 0s and 1s on a CD and play it in your stereo...

Were you really waiting for someone to answer this to invalidate your position? An unanswerable question set up to defend your position is not part of a logical argument - it's called begging the question...here's an example: Do your parents know you're gay?

Think for a moment before you respond. No one is denying that the products of ones labor should not be protected, but another replicating an idea is no loss of property to yourself, or any other. To copy, emulate, replicate, duplicate, etc. is to create a new tangible good. Here I'll use math 1+1 = 2. If I take something from you it means a transfer of ONE good from one individual to another. It's quite simple really. You are at no loss if someone else replicates a configuration of property you originally thought of. You cannot own a discovery. It's ludicrous.

Whether or not you can own a discovery is a different topic altogether - I can "own" it as long as I don't share it. And if I choose not to share something I discovered, what can you do to justly compel me to share it?

Also, do you really think that a song is an idea? Or a song is discovered vice created? Did Mozart turn over a rock one day and stumble upon a fundamental law of nature in symphonic form, which you, just as easily, and accidentally, could have stumbled upon? Or did he create all that through his effort?

Hint: those are rhetorical questions.
 
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Seems that you are a hypocritical projection artist. You seem to feel entitled to products that the originator does not want you to have without regarding the stipulations imposed. This sounds suspiciously like theft. But you want to protect your "right" (criminal privilege self-granted by your philosophical fallacies) to steal the fruits of my labor and make up reams of garbage and philosophical fairy dust to pretend advocation of your sorry set of moral principles. Sense of entitlement much?

Yer a larf thinking your pseudo-intellectual fluff amounts to a hill of beans in the real world.

Rev9

Yeah...this^^^^
 
I cannot touch your 'right to free speech', but yet we have laws protecting it. Should we do away with the laws then, because there is nothing physical to protect?

There is no right to free speech. There are laws protecting property rights already, which is all that is needed.

Take, for example, the “human right” of free speech. Freedom of speech is supposed to mean the right of everyone to say whatever he likes. But the neglected question is: Where? Where does a man have this right? He certainly does not have it on property on which he is trespassing. In short, he has this right only either on his own property or on the property of someone who has agreed, as a gift or in a rental contract, to allow him on the premises. In fact, then, there is no such thing as a separate “right to free speech”; there is only a man’s property right: the right to do as he wills with his own or to make voluntary agreements with other property owners.

In short, a person does not have a “right to freedom of speech”; what he does have is the right to hire a hall and address the people who enter the premises. He does not have a “right to freedom of the press”; what he does have is the right to write or publish a pamphlet, and to sell that pamphlet to those who are willing to buy it (or to give it away to those who are willing to accept it). Thus, what he has in each of these cases is property rights, including the right of free contract and transfer which form a part of such rights of ownership. There is no extra “right of free speech” or free press beyond the property rights that a person may have in any given case.

Short read, highly recommended: "Human Rights" as Property Rights
 
Whether or not you can own a discovery is a different topic altogether - I can "own" it as long as I don't share it. And if I choose not to share something I discovered, what can you do to justly compel me to share it?

Also, do you really think that a song is an idea? Or a song is discovered vice created? Did Mozart turn over a rock one day and stumble upon a fundamental law of nature in symphonic form, which you, just as easily, and accidentally have stumbled upon? Or did he create all that through his effort?

Hint: those are rhetorical questions.

Did Mozart create the notes, or merely rearrange them? I have 6 rocks (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 white). I arranged them into a pattern. Is that pattern an idea, or did I create (discover) that pattern?
 
Question. I have not been able to read through the entire thread, so if this has already been addressed I have not seen it.

Without IP protection, if I compose a unique book, then can anyone copy my works and sell them as if it were their works.

Could I for example copy "Liberty Defined" place my name as author and sell them as my own works?
 
Question. I have not been able to read through the entire thread, so if this has already been addressed I have not seen it.

Without IP protection, if I compose a unique book, then can anyone copy my works and sell them as if it were their works.

Could I for example copy "Liberty Defined" place my name as author and sell them as my own works?

If you wan't to lie, and claim you're Ron Paul. Trust me you won't get much sales.

What we are debating in this thread is not only the book itself, but the ideas contained in that book. Some in this thread will argue that that anyone other than Paul don't have the right to those ideas. Others argue that if you signed a contract that forbid you from using those ideas, then that contracts policies are absolute.
 
If you wan't to lie, and claim you're Ron Paul. Trust me you won't get much sales.

What we are debating in this thread is not only the book itself, but the ideas contained in that book. Some in this thread will argue that that anyone other than Paul don't have the right to those ideas. Others argue that if you signed a contract that forbid you from using those ideas, then that contracts policies are absolute.
So, you are saying I can copy Ron Paul's works and claim them as my own if I want? The amount of profit I make is irrelevant.
 
So, you are saying I can copy Ron Paul's works and claim them as my own if I want? The amount of profit I make is irrelevant.


No. That's not correct.

To copy RP's book and sell it AS YOUR OWN WORK, would be fraud.

To copy it and sell it as the work of RP, however, would be perfectly fine.
 
Did Mozart create the notes, or merely rearrange them? I have 6 rocks (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 white). I arranged them into a pattern. Is that pattern an idea, or did I create (discover) that pattern?

He rearranged them.

Did you create the banana? Or did you plan the seed and let nature arrange all the atoms? Did you pull the weeds that would have destroyed your crop?

I can address this in any terms you like - can you address the question?
 
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