Industrial Revolution Government Intervention Was Good?

yaz

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Why is it that during the industrial revolution, with the free market, workers were treated badly and things improved when government imposed safety standards?

I think things would have improved by themselves through other jobs offering better accommodations.

I know that the government regulation hurt the economy. Was it worth it or am I missing something?
 
In a totally free market businesses look after their own interest. They do not care about their employee's interests. They want to pay as little to them as they can get away with. Prrofit is the only motive. They also do not care about things like how much they pollute or safety again because if they did that would reduce the amount of money they can make.
 
Please elaborate on why you think the industrial revolution workers were bad?
 
I always thought the Industrial Revolution was a mistake, or at least poorly planed.

In a truly Free market and with a Free press, bad business practices would piss off the people (customers), and business practices would change to keep the customers (the people) happy.
 
Yeah, damn the industrial revolution. Who needs internal combustion engines, electricity, more than one shirt, abundant food, trans continental railroads, steel framed buildings, elevators, and machinery of all kinds.

Workers should still have to make their own food and clothes and travel using horse and buggy.
 
Yeah, damn the industrial revolution. Who needs internal combustion engines, electricity, more than one shirt, abundant food, trans continental railroads, steel framed buildings, elevators, and machinery of all kinds.

Workers should still have to make their own food and clothes and travel using horse and buggy.

I have known Amish folks that live quite well, but simply.

It would have been nice if technology was used a bit more wisely in the past, instead of exploiting resources.
For example.
If electricity had been pursued and developed rather than coal and oil.
Wind power could have been developed rather than abandoned.
The Diesel engine was originally designed to run on vegetable oil. It was later redesigned for petrol.

There are many ways that we could have developed, but we have to deal with the present realities.
Some things presently suck.
 
If companies wish to make profits, they have to treat their workers right.
If not, the workers will leave or demand higher wages to compensate.
No government intervention necessary.
 
The whole business versus labor is something dreamed up to divide the masses into politically managable blocks.
Labor and business are the same thing. Labor trade skills to business and business trades goods. At the time of the industrial revolution there was an excess of cheap labor and therefore the laws of supply and demand kept wages low. If there is a glut of a certain products on the market those prices are going to go down and it doesn't matter how much a business complains about how much it costs him to produce a product. Tough Sh*t!
Also during the industrial revolution the government was interferring in the market by subsidising the big robber barrons. When the robber barrons got out of hand the government stepped in and supported labor too the point that in the 1930s it was legal to commit murder durning strikes.
Sure there is always a good side when the government interfers in the free market but the side effects most often are worse that the cure. When the government subsidised the railroads the country expanded west far faster that it would have naturely but look at all the side effects that we are still feeling today. The govenment is still gaining power with regulations that are put into place to correct the problems it created in the first place.
 
Why is it that during the industrial revolution, with the free market, workers were treated badly and things improved when government imposed safety standards?

I think things would have improved by themselves through other jobs offering better accommodations.

I know that the government regulation hurt the economy. Was it worth it or am I missing something?

They were treated very well. Because of the Industrial Revolution we expect more today.
 
When asking a question like this, you have to look at all the effects of government intervention to see the true impact. In general, as government expands, freedom contracts. The issues the industrial revolution's workforce faced were in need of addressing for sure. The question is who is best equipped to handle these issues. Labor Unions are far more capable of sitting down with companies and making sure that worker's rights are taken care of than some monolithic government. The free market is a far better way to deal with the concept of minimum wage than the government randomly mandating numbers.

What the government should have been doing during the industrial revolution was protecting the environment. No one has the right to pollute the air and water, and we set out on a destructive path, with no accountability. As we see today, the government gets involved in things it shouldn't while ignoring the tasks it is charged with undertaking.
 
I always thought the Industrial Revolution was a mistake, or at least poorly planed.

In a truly Free market and with a Free press, bad business practices would piss off the people (customers), and business practices would change to keep the customers (the people) happy.

All the customers care about is price for the most part. That is why so many shop at places like WalMart.

If companies wish to make profits, they have to treat their workers right.
If not, the workers will leave or demand higher wages to compensate.
No government intervention necessary.
The companies would pay as little as they can to attract the number and quality of workers they need. There may not be a nicer job to go to if they are all (employers) behaving in this manner. Look at the factory towns there used to be. The company had most of the jobs, they ran the local store where they bought their food and clothes and maybe even owned the houses the workers rented. Things changed when workers had enough and literally fought for better working conditions- with many dying. We don't realize that today with all the options and benefits we have now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_life_during_the_industrial_revolution
Worker life
During the industrial revolution, the movement of people away from their tradition agriculture into industrial cities brought great stress to many people in the work force. This brought stress especially to women. Women in households who had earned income from spinning found that the new factories were taking away their only source of income. Traditional handloom weavers could no longer compete with the mechanized production of cloth. Skilled laborers sometimes lost their jobs as new machines replaced them. In the factories, people had to work long hours under harsh conditions. Factory owners and managers paid the minimum amount necessary for a work force, often recruiting women and children to tend the machines because they could be hired for a much lower wage. Soon critics attacked this exploitation, particularly the use of child labor.

The role of workers changed as a result of the division of labor, an idea important to the Industrial Revolution that called for dividing the production process into basic, individual tasks. This decreased the time of goods produced. Each worker would then perform one task, rather than a single worker doing the entire job. Such division of labor greatly improved productivity, but many of the simplified factory jobs were repetitive and very boring. Workers also had to labor for many hours, often more than 12 hours a day, sometimes more than 14, and people worked six days a week. Factory workers faced strict rules and close supervision by managers and overseers.

In the 1820s, income levels for most workers began to improve, and people adjusted to the different circumstances and conditions. By that time, Britain had changed forever. The economy was expanding at a rate that was more than twice the pace at which it had grown before the Industrial Revolution. Although vast differences existed between the rich and the poor, most of the population enjoyed some of the fruits of economic growth. The widespread poverty and constant threat of mass starvation that had haunted the preindustrial age lessened in industrial Britain. Although the overall health and material conditions of the population improved, critics continued to point to urban crowding and the harsh working conditions in the factories.

The youngest children in the textile factories were usually employed as scavengers and piecers. Piecers had to lean over the spinning-machine to repair the broken threads. Scavengers had to pick up the loose cotton from under the machinery. This was extremely dangerous as the children were expected to carry out the task while the machine was still working.[1]


[edit] Food
Factory owners were responsible for providing their pauper apprentices with food. Children constantly complained about the quality of the food. In most textile mills the children had to eat their meals while still working. This meant that the food tended to get covered with the dust from the cloth.It was very hard to get food in the industrial revolution due to little pay and poor wages.[2]


[edit] Employment
Many parents were unwilling to allow their children to work in these new textile factories. To overcome this labour shortage factory owners had to find other ways of obtaining workers. One solution to the problem was to obtain children from orphanages and workhouses. These children became known as pauper apprentices. This involved them signing contracts that virtually made them the property of the factory owner.


[edit] Punishments
Children who worked long hours in the textile mills became very tired and found it difficult to maintain the speed required by the over lookers. Children were usually hit with a strap to make them work faster. In some factories children were dipped head first into the water cistern if they became drowsy. Children were also punished for arriving late for work and for talking to the other children. Apprentices who ran away from the factory were in danger of being sent to prison. Children who were considered potential runaways were placed in irons.[3]


[edit] Accidents
One of the main concerned about the number of textile workers was the safety of the factories. Unguarded machinery was a major problem for children working in factories. There were reports that every year there are nearly a thousand people treated for wounds and mutilations caused by machines in factories. Many of the workers were often abandoned from a moment that is when accident occurs. Their wages are stopped, no medical attendance is provided and no compensation is given.[4]
 
Why is it that during the industrial revolution, with the free market, workers were treated badly and things improved when government imposed safety standards?

Supply versus demand. Lots of available workers (the higher populations variously because of improved survival rates of children due to less disease and improved food supplies, and then often combined with an influx of huge numbers of immigrants). So if/when someone quit (or moved on to a better job), there were ready replacements at hand.

One sees similar things happening today with the influx of large numbers of "undocumented workers" -- since the people/companies that employ them are already violating (one or more) laws in hiring them, those same people/companies are NOT exactly all that concerned about complying with the more inane "regulations" etc... and they have little fear of their employees doing anything about it because the employees now live in near constant fear of being identified and/or deported. (And the "crackdown" on illegal immigration really only serves to INCREASE the power of those employers who are NOT caught and prosecuted).

I think things would have improved by themselves through other jobs offering better accommodations.

Given enough time, yes. Indeed for most situations (bar an influx of hordes of new "naive & needy" immigrants) as the businesses themselves became more successful and needed to expand (and attract MORE workers), then working conditions WERE (in general) improving. Not in all cases, certainly, but overall yes the expanded market would have resolved this (per example see China... abhorrent conditions in virtually ALL factories a decade ago, but as the number of factories grew, and the "supply" of labor began to tighten, the situation substantially improved (at least in a significant number of factories in the main cities -- and this mainly BECAUSE of the market -- and quite regardless of the {noble, but relatively ineffective} efforts of various "humanitarian" groups.

I know that the government regulation hurt the economy. Was it worth it or am I missing something?

Well, in a sense, MUCH of the original problem was government FAILING to fairly and objectively administer existing laws.

For example, in situations where employees worked but grew deeper into debt to "the company store" -- the courts were often to blame by being a corrupt vehicle that allowed companies to "enforce" contracts with violence, and/or aided and abetted those same companies by ignoring existing usury laws, limitations on what constituted a valid contract, whether the employee "signing" such a contract was even ABLE to read and understand that contract {frequently recent immigrants didn't have ANY command of English, couldn't read, yet no translators or impartial witnesses were available, etc.} -- so the contracts were NOT truly "freely" entered into, and an interrogation and examination of the circumstances surrounding such contracts should have given them at least "questionable" status of validity (the same could be said of many MODERN contracts as well).

If you look at it from THAT point of view -- adding MORE rules and regulations was really a method of attempting to "get around" the problem without dealing with the root cause, a corrupt police and justice system (both civil AND criminal) which turned a blind eye in general in favor of the businesses.

And since the root cause of the problems was thus never really dealt with, the implementation of additional regulations also required a whole slew of new (and extra-constitutional) oversight and "dispute resolution" systems... which themselves would then (eventually) become subject to the same (and additional) potential corruptions and abuses. (Witness the recent problems with MINING industry... the regulations are disregarded, or otherwise "worked around" in part because of corruption, in part because workers themselves find many of them inhibiting to their own job performance, etc.)

Was the addition of multiple new layers of regulation worth it?

The downside of course, is the "unseen and unintended consequence" (cf the works of Frederic Bastiat, et al) in that the many people who were MORE "ethical" and LESS likely to enter into the corruptions and abuses (and thus NOT in need of the regulations at all) -- were (because of the burden of additional regulation, and the risk of additional exposure to losses at the hands of so many bureaucratic "systems") -- essentially driven off and DEmotivated from entering into competition with existing businesses in those "regulated industries" abandoning them to people who knew how to "play the games." In short, more regulation tends to lead to more corruption rather than less, if only because of the increased number of opportunities for it.

Hopefully without sounding TOO darn glib, I believe myself to be an excellent example of our society's LOSS in this regard.

I have started and run several successful small businesses, my first "real company" was begun in 8th grade -- literally manufacturing of unique tools, albeit on a small scale, and selling via mail-order. And later I ran another (publication & consulting agency) business that had a half dozen employees and additional part-time contract people. I shut that down (and suffered somewhat of a loss) rather than endure MORE risk trying to grow it -- in significant part because dealing with all of the paperwork (the various FICA; FUTA; State UC; liability insurance; office, asset & inventory taxes, and host of other onerous regulations and other encumbrances) became to my mind just SO darn burdensome that it was NOT worth the bother.

Unless the "business environment" changes substantially (or I move to some country with substantially LESS onerous regulations) then I am very UNLIKELY to ever run such a sizable operation again, much less an even larger concern (not if I can help it, anyway).

Yet I always have been (and continue to be) a HIGHLY ethical person. (I have often thought that were I significantly LESS ethical, then I probably would have found the regs and such to be much LESS burdensome, many businesspeople I know just run "under the radar" and ignore a lot of it... if/when they are even aware they are doing so.)

But since I really don't care to become "super-rich" I find that running a "bigger" operation is actually unnecessary -- and instead I choose to do LESS work, am selective in what I do work on, mainly work alone, and in general try to run as "simple" a business as possible, and to stay "comfortable" rather than trying to create business and manufacturing with lots of employees; thus I am able to "avoid" becoming entangled in just about everything other than small accounting and tax issues.

The economy thus loses not only a good and "ethical" employer, but also the additional "growth" in GDP that would result from my supervising others in the creation of more extensive products and/or services. (In a sense, I am {albeit independently} somewhat of a "John Galt Striker" RE Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged -- or to use another metaphor, like Jonathan Livingston Seagull, I have essentially mastered "flight" but keep the majority of the benefits mostly to myself, rather than trying to force them on an entirely unappreciative flock of "scrapping" seagulls.)

And I really, SERIOUSLY, do NOT think that I am all that *rare* or exceptional of a person; but rather I believe that this country contains thousands, and perhaps substantially several order of magnitude MORE people who, just like me, choose to "limit" their involvement in the economy, thus robbing us all of their potential but therefore "unseen" innovations and gains.
 
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WRellim you are brilliant, why aren't you running for a congressional seat? :)
 
WRellim you are brilliant, why aren't you running for a congressional seat? :)

For the same reason I don't run a business with employees. I have no desire to deal with arcane and inane regulations and bureaucrats... and that is essentially what a legislator does all day long, day-in day-out as a career.

BLECH! :p

I would be much more useful and effective in an administrative position (or probably even more ideally as a Judge, holding both administrative AND {indirectly} legislative feet to the proverbial "fire" -- but since judicial positions have become a literal monopoly that can only be filled by members of a privately run union... of which I am not a member -- and since I have no desire to go through the multi-year "initiation" of attending law school, much less waste the money involved -- well, I am not likely to become eligible anytime soon). :D

In addition, regardless of whether the position were legislative or administrative, you have to run and get elected.

I have significant doubts that I would be able to run a successful candidacy for anything more than a local office (say county to state level at most). Since I have no desire to "make a career" of it I am unwilling to run for, much less endure several years working in the (required) state-level office. And since I have only worked in obscure (low profile, technical) aspects of business -- I have no "business celebrity" to trade on, nor is my family name anything but prosaic either.

Finally, I am simply NOT a photogenic "pretty boy"; nor do I have the essentially "required" entourage (wife, 2.5 kids and a dog); and I am neither a brown-noser nor do I have much patience with idiots nor will I put up with BS... I can literally *destroy* virtually ANY opponent in a debate but that does NOT equate to winning supporters (note: by "debate" that I mean a TRUE "DEBATE" -- a formal verbal "argument" for/against a proposal or resolution -- not those phony Q & A sessions on TV which they erroneously CALL debates) -- most people want to elect someone "stupid" they can have a beer with (say GWB) and NOT someone "smart" who subsequently makes THEM feel dumb.

...All of which means (in our modern American "beauty w/o substance" society) it is a forgone conclusion that I am essentially "unelectable" for any major office. (At least until the "world" changes and "politics as usual" ends).



And, BTW, the above posting which impressed you is really not "brilliance" (I am at best slightly above average) -- but is merely the result of a significant amount of reading in history, philosophy, business, economics and a bit of law, combined with some training in logic and a bit of (mediocre) writing & editing skills (honed mainly in boring technical contract work -- my "books" were operational and maintenance manuals on VRRTFL's, lawn mowers, and troubleshooting & repair of Horizontal Directional Drills, etc). :D
 
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