In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

Are "Acts of God" from God?


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Sure. Every single event that occurs in God's creation was certain to occur. From God's vantage point, there is no open ended process going on where things can go either one way or the other. At each decision point a human being has where that human being might either do good or evil, if God grants them the grace to choose the good, then they will choose the good, and God will not fail, but if he does not grant them that grace, then they will choose the evil. Both outcomes are predetermined by the conditions in which they occurred just as much as the cuckoo birds coming out of the cuckoo clock are.

How can one believe in an omnipotent God and at the same time put limits on Him by not believing that He could allow things to happen against His will? In fact, ONLY an omnipotent God could have such power and freedom to allow and create a being that could completely and freely choose to reject Him.
 
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Again, I don't think you can distinguish causing and allowing here so easily. It was God's plan for Adam to eat that fruit. God saw fit to put Adam in a situation where he was certain to fail the test God gave him. God not only knew what Adam would do in that situation, but also what every other conceivable "Adam" would have done in every other conceivable situation, and he choose to create his creation such that it would be that Adam in that situation. I don't see any way around saying that it was all predestined.

I do not believe this at all. That means when God told Adam to "multiply and fill the Earth", and "to be fruitful" and "have dominion over the animals" and "took walks with Adam every afternoon in the breezy part of the day", He knew at all times He was going to kill Adam? I do not buy into any of this, and if God is what you say He is, I want no part of him. The God I believe in doesn't operate that way. That is why I don't put much credence in the Old Testament. The Jews misrepresented who God really is. That is why Jesus told the Jewish leaders: "You don't know my Father!".
 
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As far as Jesus goes, it was Satan who put it into the hearts and minds of the Romans and the Jews to murder Him; not God.

That was the very purpose Jesus came for (John 12:47). It was God's will (Mat 26:39) and God's plan since the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20). And God was at work superintending every aspect of and actor in the outworking of that plan, including those who sinned by crucifying him (Acts 2:23).

What Satan did in Job wasn't outside God's purview, it was completely within it. God stretching out his hand and touching Job and Satan being granted power over him are two different aspects of the same outworking of God's will (Job 1:11-12; 2:5-6). Job himself knew that his troubles were ultimately from God. He said, "The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away." (1:21). And according to God himself, what Job said of him was right (42:7).
 
Again, I don't think you can distinguish causing and allowing here so easily. It was God's plan for Adam to eat that fruit. God saw fit to put Adam in a situation where he was certain to fail the test God gave him. God not only knew what Adam would do in that situation, but also what every other conceivable "Adam" would have done in every other conceivable situation, and he choose to create his creation such that it would be that Adam in that situation. I don't see any way around saying that it was all predestined.

If God caused Adam to fall, then He is an evil God and not at all like the Father revealed by Christ. It is of utmost importance to understand what it means to be created in the image of God. For without free will, this entire life is a charade, a cruel joke, lacking truth and love, for only in freedom is their truth and only when freely given is their true love. The entire notion of predestination is nonexistent for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Why? Not because someone didn't think it up! But because it was resoundingly rejected from the very beginning and completely antithetical to the Christian understand of God. The entire notion of predestination logically ends up to what we see in this thread: a God Who is an unjust tyrant, who causes Adam to fall and evil to exist.
 
That is why I don't put much credence in the Old Testament. The Jews misrepresented who God really is. That is why Jesus told the Jewish leaders: "You don't know my Father!".

The fault those leaders had wasn't that they believed in the God of the Old Testament. It was that they failed to. As Jesus said in John 5:46, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."
 
Thank you for the discussion, but I must bow out right now to get some much needed rest before my next overnight shift later today. I look forward to reading more of this thread and I hope others chime in as well!
 
The fault those leaders had wasn't that they believed in the God of the Old Testament. It was that they failed to. As Jesus said in John 5:46, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."

I want to continue discussing this with you. You have a lot of insight, and I have to do more research and praying to do on this subject, but at this moment I have to leave and take care of some important things that I have to get done, so I hope this thread stays alive with this topic.

One thing I want to mention is that you keep referring to "God's plan". As a business major I learned that we "plan" to prevent failures. That is why we have "Plan A", and then as a back-up "Plan B". Instead of God having a " Divine Plan", wouldn't He have a "Divine Purpose", since what "comes out of His mouth will not return without results"? So, it would seem that God "purposes", not "plans", especially if you believe in predestination.
 
How can one believe in an omnipotent God and at the same time put limits on Him by not believing that He could allow things to happen against His will? In fact, ONLY an omnipotent God could have such power and freedom to allow and create a being that could completely and freely choose to reject Him.

First of all, I'm not sure I agree with how you seem to be defining "omnipotent." It seems like you're saying an omnipotent being is one who's powerful enough for his plans to be thwarted, which is like saying that an omniscient being is one who's smart enough to add 2 and 2 and get something other than 4 without being wrong.

Second of all, notice the way you worded your question. You talk about what God "could" do, not about what he does do. We're not just talking about what any God one might dream up might be able to do, but what the true creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who revealed himself to us through his Son, Jesus Christ, actually does do. And according to scripture, what God does do is work all things after the counsel of his will (Eph 1:11).
 
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One thing I want to mention is that you keep referring to "God's plan". As a business major I learned that we "plan" to prevent failures. That is why we have "Plan A", and then as a back-up "Plan B". Instead of God having a " Divine Plan", wouldn't He have a "Divine Purpose", since what "comes out of His mouth will not return without results"? So, it would seem that God "purposes", not "plans", especially if you believe in predestination.

That sounds like a good distinction you're making. I might be persuaded to go along with you on it. But I would add the caveat that, whether we say "plan" or "purpose," we are using a concept that cannot ever apply in exactly the same way to God that it does to us. Any time we talk about God, the human language we use of him is analogical, and not univocal. When I talk about God's plan, I'm trying to get a point across about God as best as I understand him, using language as best as I can use it, but limited in that I know that my expressions (the word's "God's plan") are inherently further removed from their referent than the expressions I use of human beings are.
 
It is of utmost importance to understand what it means to be created in the image of God. For without free will, this entire life is a charade, a cruel joke, lacking truth and love, for only in freedom is their truth and only when freely given is their true love.
I think it's important to understand what being created in God's image means. But I wouldn't say it's "of utmost importance." At the very least, we should both acknowledge that the Bible itself is not entirely explicit about what it means. And it certainly never insinuates anywhere that it involves some concept of free will.

The entire notion of predestination is nonexistent for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

That is just not true. It is a notion that is found all throughout the Bible, both Old Testament and New. It is a notion that Augustine zealously defended. And centuries before the Reformers embraced that doctrine, forbears of theirs, such as Wycliffe and Hus, also did quite explicitly.

It is also a notion that was very popular among various strands of Judaism in the age when Christianity was born, as evidenced by its popularity in rabbinic literature and the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is a notion that comported very well with Platonic ideas of God, that were (rightly or wrongly) highly influential in early Christianity. These non-christian sources, of course, are not in themselves evidence of what Christians believed, but in light of them it would be a stretch to say that the notion was "nonexistent" in Christianity, even if I were wrong about the Bible and Augustine.
 
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The same book also says of those same people in verse 17:17:

Many can quote scripture (including Lucifer itself), but don't truly understand God or His word.

IIRC, cubical mentioned that God permits certain acts to occur which is certainly true for the reasons of JUDGMENT and fulfillment of His purpose. Now, if the world were merely predestined, God wouldn't have to "put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled", would He? ;)

The distorted view of God commonly promoted by many Christians reveals God to be part sadist and masochist. Thankfully, God is neither. After all, it was God's "will" that Jesus suffer.... Oh, la, la ... ;( NO! It was God's will that humanity NOT misuse it's free agency and thereby sin in the first place. It was also God's will that Lucifer obey God. Humanity's sin DEMANDED Jesus' sacrifice. The interplay of creation's free agency with God's ultimate purpose and the JUDGMENT of the free agency is the theme of the Book of Revelation.
 
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And according to scripture, what God does do is work all things after the counsel of his will (Eph 1:11)

I have a few moments, so I thought I would ask you this:

It says in Genesis 6:6:

"The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

How can God "regret making human beings" if he saw it fit into His plan according to the council of His will to make them in the first place; "warts and all"? If He predestined for Adam to sin, humans to sin and die in the flood, why would He "regret" making them? Also, why would His heart be "deeply troubled" if everything went according to His plan?
 
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Many can quote scripture (including Lucifer itself), but don't truly understand God or His word.

IIRC, cubical mentioned that God permits certain acts to occur which is certainly true for the reasons of JUDGMENT and fulfillment of His purpose. Now, if the world were merely predestined, God wouldn't have to "put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled", would he? ;)

The distorted view of God commonly promoted by many Christians reveals God to be part sadist and masochist. Thankfully, God is neither. After all, it was God's "will" that Jesus suffer.... Oh, la, la ... ;( NO! It was God's will that humanity NOT misuse it's free agency and thereby sin in the first place. Humanity's sin DEMANDED Jesus' sacrifice. The interplay of creation's free agency with God's ultimate purpose and the JUDGMENT of the free agency is the theme of the Book of Revelation.

^^^This makes sense.
 
Many can quote scripture (including Lucifer itself), but don't truly understand God or His word.

IIRC, cubical mentioned that God permits certain acts to occur which is certainly true for the reasons of JUDGMENT and fulfillment of His purpose.

That's true about quoting Scripture. But I'd rather base my view of God on quotes from Scripture than on quotes from Cubical, no offense to Cubical.

Now, if the world were merely predestined, God wouldn't have to "put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled", would he? ;)

Not necessarily. That expression could just be a way of referring to the way God worked out what he had predestined. In fact, I would say that in a traditional view of God it would have to mean that. God's putting that into their hearts wasnt' something he just decided to do on a whim, but something he had purposed to do since eternity past.

The distorted view of God commonly promoted by many Christians reveals God to be part sadist and masochist. Thankfully, God is neither. After all, it was God's "will" that Jesus suffer.... Oh, la, la ... ;( NO! It was God's will that humanity NOT abuse it's free agency and thereby sin in the first place. Humanity's sin DEMANDED Jesus' sacrifice. The interplay of creation's free agency with God's ultimate purpose and the JUDGMENT of the free agency is the theme of the Book of Revelation.

But this view of God that you call distorted is the view of God that He himself revealed to us in the Bible. And he says of himself that he is good, and loving, and I believe it. If I am to accuse someone's idea of God of not being good, then I will have to have some idea of what good is, and I ought to get that idea of good not from wishful thinking on my part, but from what God has revealed about himself and his own goodness. It was God's will that Jesus suffer. It even pleased God to do it (Isa 53:10). Whatever I think about the goodness of God must comport with that fact.

As for the theme of free agency in the Book of Revelation, could you please point specifically to what part of the book talks about free agency? I know about the part that says God put it in their hearts to carry out his purpose by giving their kingdom to the beast (17:17), and I know about the part that says that those who marvel at the beast will be those whose names were not written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world (17:8), and I know about the part where it says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world (13:8). But when you talk about it being a book that's all about free agency, it must be something you get from a passage I interpret differently.
 
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The debate over why a loving, omnipotent God allows bad things seems innate to humans, but it is only because we so poorly understand.

I personally believe that God created all things good. Adam and Eve lived in a literal paradise, and the world was very different from how we know it. After the fall, not only were Adam and Eve expelled from the garden, but the entire world became a fallen and sinful place. Satan was allowed to roam free and work his mischief. Separated from God's presence and protection, the world and all that's in it began to decay under Satan's rotten influence.

Although God governs in the affairs of men, it is impossible to God to do anything but good. What is good, what is right and just, is seldom the easy or popular choice. Like a father struggling to educate a willful and disobedient child, God must sometimes, and for our own good, allow us to bear the painful consequences of our own actions or even to punish us Himself.

I believe that many natural disasters are the result of a world struggling under the Curse. Without God's constant protection and nourishment, even the elements themselves are subject to erosion and misuse by the Devil and his minions. God allows these events to happen for several reasons. One is to indicate to mankind that a lack of spiritual repentance has profound physical implications for our world. Another is that people might be brought to piety and faith through fear or hardship. Still another is to further our understanding that this evil and hostile world is not our home, but merely a stop along the path to our glorious new dwelling place. Disasters are a chance for mankind to prove pleasing in the sight of God, by following the commandment to love our neighbor. They are a message that we live in a dangerous world, and that true security and happiness can only be found in the eternal God. Though God does not Himself may not initiate these occurrences, through His mercy, He utilizes them for good.

I also believe that there are many instances in which God Himself sends calamitous natural events as direct punishments upon mankind. For example, in both the Old and New Testaments, God sends earthquakes as symbols of His might and wrath. Less than five thousand years ago, God send an enormous flood that destroyed almost all life on Earth. In Revelation, God will repeatedly use natural disasters to punish an unbelieving and sinful generation.

God does not take pleasure in people’s loss, but He rejoices in justice and right. He knows that these things must be done to accomplish His purpose and to provide triumph for good over evil while bringing as many as possible to salvation. Our understanding is too limited and our faith too weak to comprehend the works of God, but we can be assured that His wisdom and power are sufficient for all our needs.

Of course, God knew that all this would happen. From before the world's creation, God knew the fate of all mankind. It is indicative of God's good nature that he gave humans free will. God knew that individuality, liberty, and the personal responsibility it entails, would create the happiest and most successful humans. God does not want mindless, unwilling or servile followers. He seeks true believers, who contribute voluntarily and gladly. After we sinned, our imperfections rendered us incapable of approaching God. But He still loves us and wants a relationship with us, so he provided two means of redemption: the first was to "walk with God" and adhere to the Law, which was replaced by salvation through faith alone.

We have all sinned, and we must all bear the direct and indirect consequences of that fall from grace. That entails not only bearing the weight of our own sins, but often suffering harm from the land, sea, animals, or other humans, all of which also are groaning under the Curse. Until the New Millennium I’m afraid there will not be much respite, and earthly (and especially weather related) conditions are certain to get far, far worse before the end as Satan consolidates his earthly dominion. We are very fortunate indeed to have a God who is not only loving and merciful, but also wise and just.
 
I have a few moments, so I thought I would ask you this:

It says in Genesis 6:6:

"The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

How can God "regret making human beings" if he saw it fit into His plan according to the council of His will to make them in the first place; "warts and all"? If He predestined for Adam to sin, humans to sin and die in the flood, why would He "regret" making them? Also, why would His heart be "deeply troubled" if everything went according to His plan?

I think that is a good example of precisely the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that human language applied to God must always be analogical and not univocal. Saying that God regretted or repented of something, which we occasionally find in Scripture, does not mean that he experienced the emotion of regret that we mean when we apply it to ourselves, at least not in the exact same way. It is an expression that applies a concept we are familiar with in our own experience to God, as a way of getting as close as possible to explaining what God did. It is also an expression that relates the story of the flood from the human vantage point. God's relationship to the world changed, and viewed from the vantage point of that world, it's God who changed, but if we were to step outside of time, we would see that it was the world changing in how it experienced God. If I am swimming against the current of a river and then turn around and swim with it, from my perspective the river repented, but from the river's perspective I did. It is similar to when we talk about the sun moving across the sky. There's nothing wrong with expressing it that way--the sun truly does move across the sky--but when we say that we're refering to what it does from our vantage point, and not from some absolute frame of reference.

Some of the other occurrences of God repenting in Scripture make this more clear. For example, in the book of Jonah, God sends Jonah to announce that Ninevah will be destroyed, but when they hear that warning they repent, and so God changes his mind and spares them. But it is plain from the story that that was exactly what God intended to do all along, and that not only did God know that, but even Jonah knew it, and the reason Jonah disliked the mission was that he didn't want them to be spared. So in Jonah, God's change of mind is clearly a change of mind relative to Ninevah, not relative to the timeless plan that only he knows.

Similarly, when Israel worshiped the golden calf, God said to Moses, "Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation." (Exod 32:10). But Moses begged God to change his mind (v. 12), and he did (v. 14). The thing is, the appeal Moses makes isn't some novel new argument that Moses dreamed up that caught God by surprise, it was repeating back to God all the reasons God had already revealed for why he would bring Israel into the promised land. So Israel experienced God changing his mind from their vantage point, but inside God's mind as God experiences his own thoughts (if I may indulge in language that pushes the limits of how anyone can speak of God even analogically), he did not learn anything new from Moses or come to think anything he did not already think.

Edit: The irony just hit me of you appealing to the story of the great flood for evidence that the God of the Bible does not cause natural disasters.
 
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God's perfect responses to the expression of creation's imperfect acts are frequently miscontrued as the "will" of God. Translation plays in a role in this frequent misinterpretation of scripture. Without creation's imperfect acts instigating God's perfect responses, we'd still be living in paradise. ;) However, a time eventually comes when more words become unproductive and more prayer is needed.
 
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I think that is a good example of precisely the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that human language applied to God must always be analogical and not univocal. Saying that God regretted or repented of something, which we occasionally find in Scripture, does not mean that he experienced the emotion of regret that we mean when we apply it to ourselves, at least not in the exact same way. It is an expression that applies a concept we are familiar with in our own experience to God, as a way of getting as close as possible to explaining what God did. It is also an expression that relates the story of the flood from the human vantage point. God's relationship to the world changed, and viewed from the vantage point of that world, it's God who changed, but if we were to step outside of time, we would see that it was the world changing in how it experienced God. If I am swimming against the current of a river and then turn around and swim with it, from my perspective the river repented, but from the river's perspective I did. It is similar to when we talk about the sun moving across the sky. There's nothing wrong with expressing it that way--the sun truly does move across the sky--but when we say that we're refering to what it does from our vantage point, and not from some absolute frame of reference.

Some of the other occurrences of God repenting in Scripture make this more clear. For example, in the book of Jonah, God sends Jonah to announce that Ninevah will be destroyed, but when they hear that warning they repent, and so God changes his mind and spares them. But it is plain from the story that that was exactly what God intended to do all along, and that not only did God know that, but even Jonah knew it, and the reason Jonah disliked the mission was that he didn't want them to be spared. So in Jonah, God's change of mind is clearly a change of mind relative to Ninevah, not relative to the timeless plan that only he knows.

Similarly, when Israel worshiped the golden calf, God said to Moses, "Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation." (Exod 32:10). But Moses begged God to change his mind (v. 12), and he did (v. 14). The thing is, the appeal Moses makes isn't some novel new argument that Moses dreamed up that caught God by surprise, it was repeating back to God all the reasons God had already revealed for why he would bring Israel into the promised land. So Israel experienced God changing his mind from their vantage point, but inside God's mind as God experiences his own thoughts (if I may indulge in language that pushes the limits of how anyone can speak of God even analogically), he did not learn anything new from Moses or come to think anything he did not already think.

Edit: The irony just hit me of you appealing to the story of the great flood for evidence that the God of the Bible does not cause natural disasters.

^^^

:):):):):)!!!!!!!!!

I think we can go ahead and end this thread now. The thesis has been proven.
 
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^^^

:):):):):)!!!!!!!!!

I think we can go ahead and end this thread now. The thesis has been proven.

Naturally, some acts of JUDGMENT can be contrued to imply ALL natural disasters are "acts of God" iAW "God's will" ... ;) Notice that God's perfect responses (judgments) tend to be quite thorough and complete, errrr perfect, not incomplete and haphazard. We're currently living in a period of grace. LoL ...
 
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