In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

Are "Acts of God" from God?


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Why even start up threads like this, that are only going to cause strife on this board?

Personally I enjoy having civil discussions with those who hold differing beliefs. Just because I have a tremendous amount of certitude about my beliefs and how they came to be doesn't mean I don't have something to learn, and I'm more likely to learn new things from people who don't think exactly the way I do.

I like having my worldview challenged, it causes me to understand myself better.
 
What would a world without tectonic plates, but with oceans, look like?

Europa, without the ice. The whole thing would be a massive water-covered ball. Tectonic plates push land up, push mountains up, where otherwise there would be no dry land. So on the balance of it--having land where people can live but occasional tragic earthquakes, vs. having no land and thus no people... I'd say tectonic plates are a definite net benefit.

Also, water is essential for plate tectonics. Just look at Venus, no water and no tectonics but in size and density it's similar to Earth.

Now if we could just move it a few 10's of millions of miles further out from the sun and drop a few hundred thousand comets on it, why as soon as the crust solidifies and the surface temperature drops to below that of boiling water we should be able to create a new biosphere.

It'll only take a few million years, what are we waiting for?
 
I don't believe in a hands-on puppetmaster God. I believe he set things into motion a long, long time ago, then mostly bowed out of the physical world, with perhaps a nudge here and there in evolution.

But you still believe that he set them in motion. If a clock designer designs a clock so that cuckoo birds come out of it when it strikes 12, and then sure enough, when it strikes 12 cuckoo birds do come out of it, there would be nothing wrong with attributing the cause of that process to its designer. It is not as though it is a cuckoo clock that veers off in its own direction by some haphazard "free will" inside it making decisions that result in uncaused events or some such thing. The same is true of God and his creation. The natural processes that you describe are God's invention, the matter on which they operate is matter that he put there. Natural disasters occur exactly when and where he designed them to occur with precisely the results he planned for them to have, and they never fail to accomplish his purposes.

Edit: My main difference with your description is the last two phrases of the above quote. I don't see natural processes as things that obtain when God is absent, with him only showing up for the occasional miracle. I see natural processes as things that go on because God is always there, and they belong to him just as much as miracles do.
 
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But you still believe that he set them in motion. If a clock designer designs a clock so that cuckoo birds come out of it when it strikes 12, and then sure enough, when it strikes 12 cuckoo birds do come out of it, there would be nothing wrong with attributing that process to its designer. It is not as though it is a cuckoo clock that veers off in its own direction by some haphazard "free will" inside it making decisions that result in uncaused events or some such thing. The same is true of God and his creation.

Cuckoo birds are not made in the image and likeness of God.
 
Cuckoo birds are not made in the image and likeness of God.

But even we who are made in the image and likeness of God don't act haphazardly. Everything we do is conditioned by the natures we have and the conditions in which we find ourselves. No good thing we ever do can be done except by God's grace. And when God gives that grace, it never fails to produce the good he desires for it. As Augustine prayed to God, "Grant what you command, and command what you will."
 
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1 John 4:8 says:

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

A God of love would not be the cause of natural disasters that kill innocent people. A God that would do that would be a fiend. I don't worship a fiend.
 
1 John 4:8 says:

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

A God of love would not be the cause of natural disasters that kill innocent people. A God that would do that would be a fiend. I don't worship a fiend.

Well, God kills everything eventually, innocent and otherwise. Is a heart attack or cancer really any different from a tsunami? But humans regardless of all this seek out the good. We strive towards that which is contrary to all that we observe. We see death, entropy, futility, yet we are always focused on actualizing the good. What is it about us that causes us to want to abandon pain, abandon suffering, abandon affliction? Perhaps as one buddhist said, "the purpose of this life is to abandon pain".

I think the main point is that we all seek answers to the question of why. I also think we all have faith that there's something "good" about this life even though all of our actions eventually culminate in dying. I think the OP's question is really rooted in the great question of religion. What is the purpose of suffering, affliction and sin?
 
Because it is illogical. It is called a "theme and contradiction". Jesus died for us so we can live, while His Father is busy murdering people? Total insanity.

I guess I don't follow the logic that would make it illogical.

I don't pretend to know what God's reasons are for everything. When people who appear to be innocent die, I don't have a way of knowing if they really are innocent, or what would have happened if they didn't die, or what's in store for them after death, or any number of other things that only God knows. I think when God prohibited Adam and his race from eating from the tree of life, in one sense that prevention of us from living forever as we are in this flesh and in this world was an act of mercy.

I also think your example is ironic. If there ever was a case of a truly innocent person dying, it was Jesus. And his death wasn't some divergence of history from God's perfect plan, it was the very heart of that plan.
 
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But even we who are made in the image and likeness of God don't act haphazardly. Everything we do is conditioned by the natures we have and the conditions in which we find ourselves. No good thing we ever do can be done except by God's grace. And when God gives that grace, it never fails to produce the good he desires for it. As Augustine prayed to God, "Grant what you command, and command what you will."

The good we do is by God's grace, but the evil we do is not. In fact, it is the complete lack of God's grace. Evil in and of itself does not exist. It has no existence by itself. Rather, evil is the absence of good and the absence of the grace of God, similarly to how darkness is the absence of light. A room with no windows and no lit candle is dark because it is empty. It lacks substance. You cannot add more darkness to it. Darkness only has 'existence' by nature of it lacking light. So if you light a candle in this darkened room and the light fills the darkness, it will shine it's brightness and overcome the darkness and no matter how hard you try, you cannot 'add' more darkness, because by itself, it has no substance.

Similarly, evil has no existence by itself and rather is created when the light of God is extinguished by sin and transgression. The Spirit being quenched, as St. Paul says. Therefore one can see that God is not the author of evil (what blasphemy to even consider such a thing, in fact, this is sin against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin mentioned by Christ Himself!). Rather, evil is created by rational beings (men and the fallen angels) and comes into existence because of our separation and estrangement from Him, Who is Life and the Source of Life. Apart from God, there is nothingness. Darkness. Emptiness. With God, there is fullness. Light. Life.

By endowing us with the gift of free will and creativity (the very essence of being made in the image of God), we have been given the freedom to choose between these two extremes, namely, good and evil, life and death, existence and nonexistence, being and non being.

And when we choose the later, not only are our souls affected, but our environment around us as well. In fact, all of creation suffers from each sin we create. Each evil we bring into existence into this world affects the people and the world around us, including even the movement of tectonic plates. For had we been good stewards and obeyed in righteousness the will of God in our dominion to the world He gave us, then never would there be such a thing as a natural disaster, nor an earthquake, nor a tornado. But just as it was in the Garden (and as it will be in the Kingdom), the lion will lay down with the lamb, and the peace will be an everlasting peace.

Glory to God in the Highest! May we open our hearts to You and learn Your will, so that by following Your will and obeying Your commandments, we too might rejoice with Adam in the Kingdom prepared for us before the foundation of the world!
 
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Well, God kills everything eventually, innocent and otherwise.

But when God warned Adam and Eve about eating from the Tree, He did not say to them that if they did He would kill them, but rather that they would die. This is an important nuance to understand. God is Life and the Source of Life, and without Him we have no existence. Thus, we die because of our separation from Him, as a consequence of this separation. In fact, God, in His love for us, wishes that we ALL be saved and live with Him and in Him. This is why He became man so that the power of sin and the wages of sin (which is death) could be overcome by His own death, thereby granting us the means and the way to find eternal life.
 
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The good we do is by God's grace, but the evil we do is not. In fact, it is the complete lack of God's grace.

And when God chooses not to grant that grace in those cases, that evil we do is every bit as certain as the good we do when he graciously leads us to do good, because we are utterly sinful in our own natures. There is no openness either way.
 
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This is why He became man so that the power of death can be overcome by His own death, thereby granting us the means and the way to find eternal life.

And a prerequisite for this act of God is that sin and death must first have come into being. When Adam ate that fruit, it didn't set into motion some kind of plan B for God, it was plan A.
 
And when God chooses not to grant that grace in those cases, that evil we do is every bit as certain as the good we do when he graciously leads us to do good, because we are utterly sinful in our own natures. There is no openness either way.

I'm not following. Could you rephrase this?
 
Well, God kills everything eventually, innocent and otherwise.

I don't believe God kills everything. That would be in violation of His command "Thou shalt not kill." We all die, and as to why, I am not sure. According to the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve were created perfect, with the ability to live a long time or live forever, and they were told by God, "The day you eat of the tree, you will die." So, what is the converse for not eating from the tree? Life. How long? I don't know. But God apparently put a booby trap inside Adam and Eve's genetic code so that when they would eat of the fruit they would become sinners, and then they and their offspring would die. If that is the case, then yes, God is killing us. So, we have His son as a ransome sacrifice to pay atonement for Adam and his offspring's sins. So God sentences us to death, then God makes a provision for us to have everlasting life: if we want it.


Is a heart attack or cancer really any different from a tsunami? But humans regardless of all this seek out the good. We strive towards that which is contrary to all that we observe. We see death, entropy, futility, yet we are always focused on actualizing the good. What is it about us that causes us to want to abandon pain, abandon suffering, abandon affliction? Perhaps as one buddhist said, "the purpose of this life is to abandon pain".

I think the main point is that we all seek answers to the question of why. I also think we all have faith that there's something "good" about this life even though all of our actions eventually culminate in dying. I think the OP's question is really rooted in the great question of religion. What is the purpose of suffering, affliction and sin?

You bring up very good questions to which I have no answers. But, it seems illogical to me that a "God of love" wants all of mankind to live forever, while at the same time He murders people. It makes absolutely no sense. I don't believe in predestination, unless it is in absolute fulfillment of God's purpose, and I don't believe that God creates these natural disasters to murder innocent people. Its like Bosso quoted. "Unforeseen occurrence befall is all". I like that scripture.
 
And a prerequisite for this act of God is that sin and death must first have come into being. When Adam ate that fruit, it didn't set into motion some kind of plan B for God, it was plan A.

Just because God knew Adam would eat of the Tree does not mean He caused Adam to eat the fruit or predestined him to do so.
 
I'm not following. Could you rephrase this?

Sure. Every single event that occurs in God's creation was certain to occur. From God's vantage point, there is no open ended process going on where things can go either one way or the other. At each decision point a human being has where that human being might either do good or evil, if God grants them the grace to choose the good, then they will choose the good, and God will not fail, but if he does not grant them that grace, then they will choose the evil. Both outcomes are predetermined by the conditions in which they occurred just as much as the cuckoo birds coming out of the cuckoo clock are.
 
I guess I don't follow the logic that would make it illogical.

I don't pretend to know what God's reasons are for everything. When people who appear to be innocent die, I don't have a way of knowing if they really are innocent, or what would have happened if they didn't die, or what's in store for them after death, or any number of other things that only God knows. I think when God prohibited Adam and his race from eating from the tree of life, in one sense that prevention of us from living forever as we are in this flesh and in this world was an act of mercy.

I also think your example is ironic. If there ever was a case of a truly innocent person dying, it was Jesus. And his death wasn't some divergence of history from God's perfect plan, it was the very heart of that plan.

There are a lot of things I don't know and will never know, but I know how God has worked in my life and how He has helped me through prayer. He is a God of love, and that is who I worship. He knows we are sinners, we were born this way. So, what is He going to do, make us suffer even more for something we have no control over? As far as Jesus goes, it was Satan who put it into the hearts and minds of the Romans and the Jews to murder Him; not God. God knew by what Satan had done to Job and his family that when He sent His son, Satan would try at every chance to kill Jesus. Satan finally succeeded, and God allowed this to happen so those who worship Jesus may have everlasting life.
 
Just because God knew Adam would eat of the Tree does not mean He caused Adam to eat the fruit or predestined him to do so.

Again, I don't think you can distinguish causing and allowing here so easily. It was God's plan for Adam to eat that fruit. God saw fit to put Adam in a situation where he was certain to fail the test God gave him. God not only knew what Adam would do in that situation, but also what every other conceivable "Adam" would have done in every other conceivable situation, and he choose to create his creation such that it would be that Adam in that situation. I don't see any way around saying that it was all predestined.
 
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