In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

[Hotchney]

Honestly, no one knows. Not to mention, as far as human history shows, no one can 'know'

In my opinion, if you can't know, why bother worrying about it?

 

[tpreitzel]

Its all very mystical and complicated you see, too complicated for me to explain, but I'll just express a pretense of knowledge on the subject anyways.

But really as hard as you seem to try and avoid the truth with careful wording, even this explanation of yours does not work.

An example:

--------------------------

Bob the builder is omnipotent, omniscient, and timeless, and wants to create a fish tank. Bob creates his fish tank knowing that it has a flaw which will eventually (either in five seconds after he makes it, or five years after he makes it) crack and shatter, thus killing the fish. Bob of course knows how to make the fish tank in such a way that it will not crack and shatter. And bear in mind also that God says he loves the fish.

Did Bob just "allow" this to happen, or did Bob make it happen? Bob made the fish tank knowing it would happen when he could have easily made the tank last forever. Thus, in the instant Bob made the fish tank, he also made it to shatter. He made it to shatter, he made it shatter. He killed his fish, that he says he loves. And there is no "whoops", or "I guess I overlooked that" moment.

You're ASSUMING that what currently exists is a direct result of God's actions and completely IGNORE the expression of the limited free agency. Maybe, maybe not. Hence, you attribute these "flaws" to God. Since God has the ability to stop the expression of these "flaws", you further attribute His reticence to mean approval of the expression of these "flaws". Maybe, maybe not. AGAIN, JUDGMENT CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE AUTONOMOUS EXPRESSION OF THE LIMITED FREE AGENCY. Using your example of the recent Japanese earthquake, do you know 100% that the earthquake was a direct act of God, i.e. an expression of God's will, or could it have been the expression of the will of some other entity or entities? Lastly, if God had preemtively intervened in the Japanese earthquake, would there have been an earthquake to judge?

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Generally, yes, the free agency is roughly equivalent to free "will" ... I can't express myself any clearer.

Ref: post #16 as well.

You haven't been clear at all. Going off post 5 I'd guess you were either saying UFOs/Angels cause natural disasters, or the forces of nature have their own will and cause natural disasters. It was off the charts.

I haven't read the book of revelation, so post 16 wasn't helpful to me.

You're ASSUMING that what currently exists is a result of God's direct actions. Maybe, maybe not. Hence, you attribute these "flaws" to God. Since God has the ability to stop the expression of these "flaws", you further attribute His reticence to mean approval of the expression of these "flaws". Maybe, maybe not. AGAIN, JUDGMENT CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE AUTONOMOUS EXPRESSION OF THE LIMITED FREE AGENCY.

Basically what I think you have been saying, is that God gave humans, aliens, and angels, and whatever else free will. Because such entities have free will, God can't stop them from causing earth quakes with the earth quake creating machines they apparently have.

All I was trying to assume was, was that this wasn't what you were saying, or I was just not understanding you. Because its pretty far out.

 

[cubical]

Its all very mystical and complicated you see, too complicated for me to explain, but I'll just express a pretense of knowledge on the subject anyways.

But really as hard as you seem to try and avoid the truth with careful wording, even this explanation of yours does not work.

An example:

--------------------------

Bob the builder is omnipotent, omniscient, and timeless, and wants to create a fish tank. Bob creates his fish tank knowing that it has a flaw which will eventually (either in five seconds after he makes it, or five years after he makes it) crack and shatter, thus killing the fish. Bob of course knows how to make the fish tank in such a way that it will not crack and shatter. And bear in mind also that God says he loves the fish.

Did Bob just "allow" this to happen, or did Bob make it happen? Bob made the fish tank knowing it would happen when he could have easily made the tank last forever. Thus, in the instant Bob made the fish tank, he also made it to shatter. He made it to shatter, he made it shatter. He killed his fish, that he says he loves. And there is no "whoops", or "I guess I overlooked that" moment.

In your scenario was Bob the cause of the crack or were the fish the cause of the crack? If the fish acted differently, would there never have been a crack? God did not create sin, but he created an environment where it could happen. In fact he used it to show the world how much he loved it, by sending his son Jesus to die in the place of sin.

 

[tpreitzel]

You haven't been clear at all. Going off post 5 I'd guess you were either saying UFOs/Angels cause natural disasters, or the forces of nature have their own will and cause natural disasters. It was off the charts.

I haven't read the book of revelation, so post 16 wasn't helpful to me.



Basically what I think you have been saying, is that God gave humans, aliens, and angels, and whatever else free will. Because such entities have free will, God can't stop them from causing earth quakes with the earth quake creating machines they apparently have.

Generally correct, but God CAN intervene but generally does NOT intervene preemtively because there would NOT be an act to judge.


Anyway, I want to listen to C2C ... more tomorrow

 

[Xenophage]

You're ASSUMING that what currently exists is a direct result of God's actions and completely IGNORE the expression of the limited free agency. Maybe, maybe not. Hence, you attribute these "flaws" to God. Since God has the ability to stop the expression of these "flaws", you further attribute His reticence to mean approval of the expression of these "flaws". Maybe, maybe not. AGAIN, JUDGMENT CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE AUTONOMOUS EXPRESSION OF THE LIMITED FREE AGENCY. Using your example of the recent Japanese earthquake, do you know 100% that the earthquake was a direct act of God, i.e. an expression of God's will, or could it have been the expression of the will of some other entity or entities?

I understand your point. "Autonomous expression of the limited free agency" seems a rather convoluted way of saying "free will," though.

Your postulation is predicated on the idea that only an autonomous agent can be held morally responsible for his actions, because morality deals specifically with the realm of choices. Good and evil are choices. Without free will, morality doesn't exist. This is absolutely true. In your view, since God judges people (and, I guess... aliens...), he allows people (and aliens) to cause bad things to happen even though he could stop them while he watches and cringes.

However, this viewpoint also directly contradicts the so-called morality of the Bible. Original sin presumes that every human being is guilty for the actions of Adam and Eve. How do you reconcile original sin with your obviously more enlightened understanding of morality?

 

[Dave Aiello]

(copied and pasted from my facebook, under religious beliefs)

there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology.

The relationship between the body and mind ("soul") is more intimate than commonly supposed, as they can be considered one in the same. There is no reason to believe that the "soul", as defined by theologians, or any presence of mind can persist when a brain decays. It is also a commonly held fallacy to believe that one has no moral compass without religion. Our values can and should be formed with regard to reason, not by a dogmatic preacher or by fearing eternal punishment.

Further, I contest that virtually nobody would accept religious arguments had they not the desire to want to believe the conclusion. To feel the "need" to have a religion is to act with cowardice and delusion, not with dignity. Ask yourself why you disregard greek gods, or any religion besides your own, and it will shed light as to why I disregard them all.

So, to your question, the answer is a resounding NO.

Native Americans danced to bring rain. Ancient greeks thought the sun god dragged the sun across the sky. You beleive hurricanes and tornadoes are acts of your judeo-christian God. See the trend?

 

[t0rnado]

Of course they're acts of God. Homosexuals, the ACLU, and Green Peace have caused God to unleash his wrath upon us.

 

[Dave Aiello]

Of course they're acts of God. Homosexuals, the ACLU, and Green Peace have caused God to unleash his wrath upon us.

+rep. Can't forget people wearing garments of two different threads.. or planting different crops side by side.. or those unclean heathens who touch the skin of a dead pig every Sunday.

Listen, if you need religion to cope with the inevitability of death, so be it, but expect backlash from free thinkers.

 

[doodle]

1. First of all, let's clear up this meme that says "Falwell and Pat Robertson" are "Christian leaders". You can ask any Christian on this board who they think is an intellectual leader to them and I *promise* it is not going to be Falwell (who is dead btw) or Pat Robertson. The Christians I know in life and on this board are very well educated and get their philosophical opinions from a wide variety of scholars and speakers...none of which are Falwell or Robertson. Falwell and Pat Robertson are frankly laughed at in many Christian circles. They do not represent my political or even theological views.


2. The phrase "act of God" is a very appropriate phrase that sprang up in an era of America when the Bible was actually taught and believed. So the Biblical understanding that God is the governor of His creation really shouldn't surprise you.

While you may be right and have a point, there are also many belivers for whom late Falwell was an adored leader.

 

[cubical]

(copied and pasted from my facebook, under religious beliefs)

there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology.

The relationship between the body and mind ("soul") is more intimate than commonly supposed, as they can be considered one in the same. There is no reason to believe that the "soul", as defined by theologians, or any presence of mind can persist when a brain decays. It is also a commonly held fallacy to believe that one has no moral compass without religion. Our values can and should be formed with regard to reason, not by a dogmatic preacher or by fearing eternal punishment.

Further, I contest that virtually nobody would accept religious arguments had they not the desire to want to believe the conclusion. To feel the "need" to have a religion is to act with cowardice and delusion, not with dignity. Ask yourself why you disregard greek gods, or any religion besides your own, and it will shed light as to why I disregard them all.

So, to your question, the answer is a resounding NO.

Native Americans danced to bring rain. Ancient greeks thought the sun god dragged the sun across the sky. You beleive hurricanes and tornadoes are acts of your judeo-christian God. See the trend?

You get your morals from reason? If my reason differs from yours is mine wrong? Who says? What about love. Is love real? Do you only love because your great great ancestors acted in a way that we call "loving", which allowed them to survive and they passed on the trait to you? Aside from the many holes in that theory, assuming it is true, then you only love your dad/mom/wife/friends because it kept your ancestors alive. It isn't really love for lovings sake. It is loving for survival. Is that how you view love? It appears things like universal morals and love are illusions, required for survival.

I have the belief in Jesus Christ instilled in me. It was not my choice, but it is what I believe and it was a gift from God. But I can point to logic as to why my belief is true, but I don't want to get into a long thread on Christian Apologetics as message boards are a terrible platform for debating these issues. Atheists always say belief in the greek gods or in the flying spaghetti monster is just as valid, when logically that is just not the case. And rather than being drawn into a long argument, I will end it there.

And to your last point, just because 2 x 2, 3 x 3, 4 x 4, and 5 x 5 doesn't equal 36, does that mean 6 x 6 doesn't?

 

[doodle]

Listen, if you need religion to cope with the inevitability of death, so be it, but expect backlash from free thinkers.

True but I'm sure you'll agree that such a backlash can never come close to wrath of God inspired "backlash from believers". Fear of God, sure.. but "fear of thinkers" is unheard of.

 

[Sola_Fide]

(copied and pasted from my facebook, under religious beliefs)

there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology.

The relationship between the body and mind ("soul") is more intimate than commonly supposed, as they can be considered one in the same. There is no reason to believe that the "soul", as defined by theologians, or any presence of mind can persist when a brain decays. It is also a commonly held fallacy to believe that one has no moral compass without religion. Our values can and should be formed with regard to reason, not by a dogmatic preacher or by fearing eternal punishment.

Further, I contest that virtually nobody would accept religious arguments had they not the desire to want to believe the conclusion. To feel the "need" to have a religion is to act with cowardice and delusion, not with dignity. Ask yourself why you disregard greek gods, or any religion besides your own, and it will shed light as to why I disregard them all.

So, to your question, the answer is a resounding NO.

Native Americans danced to bring rain. Ancient greeks thought the sun god dragged the sun across the sky. You beleive hurricanes and tornadoes are acts of your judeo-christian God. See the trend?

I see the trend. Atheists have inserted their god of random chance into the theory.

That of course, is ridiculous. We have an ordered universe that operates by laws and that is structured. We have rational minds that think in terms of logical laws and categories. And then we have atheists who say that everything is random.

The weather is actually a great apologetic for Christians because it leads to a discussion of God's order in the universe and how atheism cannot explain it.

Atheism undermines rationality itself. If our brains are nothing more than a bunch of goo being acted on by the random forces of the universe, then man's mind is not free, and there is not rationality.

 

[Dave Aiello]

And to your last point, just because 2 x 2, 3 x 3, 4 x 4, and 5 x 5 doesn't equal 36, does that mean 6 x 6 doesn't?

My last point is that because 2x2, 2x2, and 2x2 never equals 36, when you try to solve 2x2 today, it also does not equal 36.

In regard to morals, I get my morals from observing my environment, and acting reasonably. I do not get morals by fearing eternal punishment. I would never harm another human being, but I do eat meat on Fridays, and will work on Sundays.

Can I ask a question - Do you have the same religion as your parents? (likely yes.) Why is your religion correct just because you so happen to have been born into it? Why do you reject all other religions? Some of us, like myself, simply reject 1 more god than you do.

I am an atheist, and I understand that "I" am simply a product of my awareness. When I cease to be aware, I cease to exist. I find satisfaction in knowing that I had the chance to exist at all. Imagine the number of lives that COULD have been here in my place - all the possible combinations of egg and sperm. The number of people who could have been here in my place outnumber the sand grains in the Sahara. I say, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred.

That is how I address the giant pink elephant in my head. I don't dress it up with a halo or a virgin birth. I take it for what it is, I embrace it, and I live accordingly.

 

[Vessol]

I see the trend. Atheists have inserted their god of random chance into the theory.

That of course, is ridiculous. We have an ordered universe that operates by laws and that is structured. We have rational minds that think in terms of logical laws and categories. And then we have atheists who say that everything is random.

The weather is actually a great apologetic for Christians because it leads to a discussion of God's order in the universe and how atheism cannot explain it.

Atheism undermines rationality itself. If our brains are nothing more than a bunch of goo being acted on by the random forces of the universe, then man's mind is not free, and there is not rationality.

Pigeonholing Atheists is just as fashionable as pigeonholing Christians.

 

[TER]

This might add to the discussion.

taken from here

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Much of the Japanese coast lies in water-swept ruins. The nation struggles with radiation from damaged power plants. And it all stems from a natural disaster beyond control. How are we to consider natural disasters in our spiritual lives? Is there a purpose to them? Why does God allow them, if "allow" is the right word, and if there is a God?

We asked our panelists to answer a matter of theodicy, a word coined by Gottfried Leibniz in the 18th century that literally means "God" and "justice" and seeks to justify the ways of God to man. In its most popular function, it asks why do bad things happen to good people, which is what we ask now when confronted with the disaster in Japan.

Bill Proctor, pastor of First Presbyterian Church of San Angelo:

A worldview that reflects the teachings of Scripture holds that God created the heavens and the earth, and that God oversees all of creation. Though no one can say with any true authority why God "allows" natural disasters to take place – take place they do. Earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, and even asteroids from the heavens have battered and bruised the face of the earth since time began. Somehow, and in some way, our planet is not yet complete. Teutonic plates are moving, the wind is reshaping the mountains, and floods are redirecting rivers. Maybe this change and movement is essential to life in ways we do not yet understand – but God understands. Maybe natural disasters take place because even though they bring about great destruction and loss of life they are also, ironically enough, essential for life.

As those who have been made in God's image we have been given the gifts of intelligence, reason, and creativity. I believe God wants us to use these gifts in ways that benefit all of humanity. For example, we know why earthquakes occur, and we also have a good idea where they are likely to occur. I doubt we will ever be able to fully predict, much less stop, an earthquake, but we have been given minds with which to design buildings that will withstand the forces that are unleashed when the earth shifts.

Possibly a more important question to consider is not the one that asks, "Why does God allow natural disasters?" but rather, "Why do we continue to live and act in ways that disregard the laws of nature as we know them?" God has given us the ability to understand cause and effect, and when we choose to disregard the realities of nature then our disregard is not God's fault.

In the meantime, as a Christian, what do I do when a disaster strikes? I will seek to do as God's word teaches, and that is to pray for the victims, offer aid, and then go to work to help those in need.

Henry Bucher, associate professor emeritus of Humanities at Austin College, guest commentator:

Christianity and Islam have more in common than they have differences. Such is the case in similar renditions of the Job story in the Biblical book of Job, who is called Ayoub in the parallel story in the Quran (Surahs 21 and 38). Both scriptures describe Satan as questioning whether Job's faithfulness is a result of, and reward for, his prosperity. In the two narratives (Bible and Quran), every manner of disaster strikes Job/Ayoub — one after another — yet he remains faithfully patient.

Patience is the key word here with its common origin through the Latin word for suffering: passion. Job/Ayoub appears so passionate in his faith that passion becomes a part of the process of his life. Not to suffer was indeed an ultimate sign of fortune in a world where suffering is common.

Patience itself does not ensure reward, but it is part of a long process that highlights the tension between the sovereignty of God and human understanding. Sometimes human actions can result in disasters; yet at other times, humans are victims of being at a place and time of a specific disaster such as earthquakes followed by tsunamis. Before science could explain the geological causes, people often thought that God was punishing them.

Perhaps Buddhism and Shintoism would suggest other ideas here; but in the long run, theology and history lead to the affirmation of how inscrutable to us are the ways of God. What is most clear is that those who suffer should be helped by those who are more fortunate.

S. Murat Kara, student of Islam

Disclaimer: I am not a scholar of Islam. I am presenting what I understand as a lay person. All quotations with numbered verses are from the Quran.

We do not know why such horrible disasters occur. Perhaps, we are not meant to know. Only God knows.

(10.20) "And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The unseen is only for Allah "

(11.123) "To Allah do belong the unseen (secrets) of the heavens and the earth "

(72.026) "(He is) the Knower of the Unseen, and He reveals unto none His secret."

If we are looking for irrefutable answers, we should look into science. Faith is not science. Faith is belief in the unprovable. What and who are we questioning? And what is next? Are we going to ask for a refund — "Well, I am not satisfied with the service provided, I demand a refund!"?

Feeling entitled to answers is also an indication of humans' arrogance and forgetfulness. Humans forget who they are, who created them, and how insignificant they are in the universe.

(82.006-009) "O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?

"Who created thee, then fashioned, then proportioned thee?

"Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.

"Nay, but you deny the Judgment."

(17.67) "And when distress afflicts you in the sea, away go those whom you call on except He; but when He brings you safe to the land, you turn aside; and man is ever ungrateful."

Yet, humans feel entitled to everything. Somebody owes them an explanation. Naturally, the inherent arrogance and the sense of entitlement lead to the sense of invincibility. From the movie, "Titanic," "This ship is unsinkable. God himself could not sink this ship."

Some humans might feel empowered — not only relative to their peers in this world, but also even cosmically empowered, by their gigantic mansions with marble bathrooms, their tank-like vehicles, collections of precious things, or by their social status.

(26.129) "And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?"

(104.3) "He thinks that his wealth will make him immortal."

However, believers never forget (4.078) "Wheresoever ye may be, death will overtake you, even though ye were in lofty towers" because they know (29.064) "What is the life of this world but amusement and play? But verily the Home in the Hereafter, — that is life indeed, if they but knew."

Believers have to struggle against evil and work for good in this world in order to gain in the hereafter.

(9.71) "And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."

The occurrence of such disasters might be part of our struggle of this world. We believe that everything comes from God, ask for his protection and move on with our struggle.

(39.62) "Allah is the Creator of everything and He has charge over everything."

John Choate and Jon Mark Hogg, members of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary Greek Orthodox Church:

How can we ever understand why God allows disasters like the horrible earthquake and tsunami that devastated Japan? To the survivors, there is no answer that will lessen their suffering and grief. Silence at such a time should be our only response. But, we seldom deal with tragedy in this way. We long for these events to have some meaning. But, more often than not, there is none. That is because catastrophe, destruction and death are not the creation of God. They are in fact the enemies of God.

We do not live in a museum. Volcanoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes are the result of forces created by God to sustain and nourish life. God has not created a dead planet, but a free, vibrant and dynamic world. With that freedom, at times, come disaster and death. But, God has made a mockery of death and destroyed its power over us. In the midst of tragedy, it is easy to lose sight of God's true purpose — to heal the world and unite all humanity to himself.

As David Bentley Hart writes in "The Doors of the Sea: Where was God in the Tsunami?" "For after all, if it is from Christ that we are to learn how God relates himself to sin, suffering, evil and death, it would seem that he provides us little evidence of anything other than a regal, relentless, and miraculous enmity: sin he forgives, suffering he heals, evil he casts out, and death he conquers. And absolutely nowhere does Christ act as if any of these things are part of the eternal work or purposes of God." So, when we see the death of a child, Hart later reminds us, "we do not see the face of God, but the face of his enemy."

We must understand there is a distinct difference between that which God permits and that which is his will. As described by Hart, "God has fashioned creatures in his image so that they might be joined in a perfect union with him in the rational freedom of love. For that very reason, what God permits, rather than violate the autonomy of the created world, may be in itself contrary to what he wills." In other words, what God permits to be is not necessarily what he wills or desires.

There is nothing inconsistent, Hart writes, between an all-knowing and all-powerful God that creates a world of complete autonomy and freedom but who also can "assure at the same time that no consequence of the misuse of that freedom will prevent him from accomplishing the good he intends in all things." God heals and redeems all things, even the greatest tragedies of human existence. This is how the Eastern Orthodox tradition understands God and his interaction in and with our world. God is love and light, and in him is no darkness or evil at all. So, everything that comes from God, even that which is awesome, powerful and destructive, "must be good and true and beautiful." "It is this love and goodness of God," Hart continues,"that the Christian is bidden to find in the entirety of the created order." In the end, the Christian is called to labor to see a deeper truth than the mere harsh and brutal nature of the world — "a truth that gives rise not to optimism but to joy."

A more thorough discussion of this topic from an Eastern Orthodox perspective can be found in: "The Doors of the Sea, Where was God in the Tsunami?" by David Bentley Hart; published in 2005 by William B. Eerdman's Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, Mich.

Bishop Michael Pfeifer, Catholic Diocese of San Angelo:

The catastrophic earthquake and destructive tsunami in Japan that has left thousands dead and millions struggling to survive and great property destruction raises the question: How could God let all of this happen? Some people even ask: Does God cause such a disaster? To give some type of an answer to these questions, we go back to some basic biblical principles and Judeo-Christian teachings as regards these and similar disasters that have happened down through the ages.

No quick answer will suffice to answer these questions and the fundamental question of: Why does evil exist? To understand these disasters in nature in the world in which we live, we go to Divine Providence through which God carries out God's plan for creation. Divine Providence is the disposition by which God guides all creation to perfection. God, as we know in the Bible, created all things and saw that they were good. We also know that at the very beginning with our first parents in the garden, something terrible happened — that mere creatures through their own free will turned against God, their creator and Father, and this not only affected their relationship with God but their relationship with creation. St. Paul tells us that all creation is groaning and in labor pains (did he mean earthquakes and hurricanes?) to be set free from the slavery of corruption, longing for a new beginning and new life that can only come about through God's action as God leads creation to its ultimate perfection.

Ultimately only Christian faith and trust in God's providential care can help us understand these disasters in the context of the original goodness of creation, the mystery of sin and its effects on creation, and the disasters in nature and God's patient love for sinful people and tarnished creation down through the ages.

We firmly believe based on the Bible that God is the Master of the whole world, which contains both good and evil and that God's Providence is leading all of broken creation to its final perfection.

The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by His Son Jesus Christ, who died and rose to vanquish evil and to give us new hope and life. Ultimately, the Resurrection of Christ will make all things new and restore proper order in creation. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if it did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

How shall we think about these disasters that afflict our world from time to time, like the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan? Does God punish us with earthquakes, floods and hurricanes? Our faith answer is "no," but this still doesn't help us fully understand why innocent people suffer. To a certain degree, we must accept that some mysteries are simply beyond our ability to grasp. We may never know why God created a world in which catastrophes are possible. But then again, that may not be the most important question we can ask.

Perhaps a better approach would be to ask how we should respond when disasters strike. Can we hold fast to our faith in God even in the face of human suffering? And can we find His presence, His grace and His intimate love, even if we have lost family and our possessions to a flood, or our homes to an earthquake? Disasters call all of us to open our hearts and hands to comfort, to pray and share what we can with those afflicted.

Natural calamities happen in our tarnished world, and there is not much that we can do about them. But simply because they are out of our control we should never think that God is the immediate cause of hurricanes, earthquakes or floods. We should never think that God has abandoned us or is exercising His wrath upon us for our sins.

God wants to give us unshakable faith to convince us that nothing can separate us from God's love and providence, not even the devastation of an earthquake or tsunami. Yes, we will grieve our losses. We will weep and feel pain. Even in the midst of our loss and sorrow, God is with us to comfort us and give us promise of hope and restoration.

At the same time, every time there is a great disaster in the world, we are reminded of the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel that one day the world as we know it will be destroyed, will be changed. Are these the last times? Are there worse disasters to come? As we review the history of the Earth, and the history of people on planet Earth, we see that down through the ages, there have been great catastrophes, some which are natural, and some which are caused by God's own people. Each one of these is a reminder in some way that everything that surrounds us on planet Earth is material and will one day pass away. But if we are faithful to our God, we will not pass away. We will live forever with our God.

 

[Dave Aiello]

I see the trend. Atheists have inserted their god of random chance into the theory.

That of course, is ridiculous. We have an ordered universe that operates by laws and that is structured. We have rational minds that think in terms of logical laws and categories. And then we have atheists who say that everything is random.

The weather is actually a great apologetic for Christians because it leads to a discussion of God's order in the universe and how atheism cannot explain it.

We know why it rains. We know how hurricanes form. We know why tornadoes occur. We know that the earth is more than 5000 years old. We know how life evolved, and that it will continue to do so. We know how solar systems form around stars, and how galaxies form around black holes. We know that our universe has an end, and it is expanding. Though we don't have all the answers, we do know that if we simply explained the unknown by postulating a supernatural cause, Science would never have the vast body of knowledge that it possesses.

"God" has never been the explanation for anything that is known. Nothing.

 

[jmdrake]

God is sovereign over His creation and the weather, NOT satan or man.

God delegates His authority. At creation He gave man dominion over the earth. Man lost that dominion when man sinned. It's funny how you ignore Bible verses that don't fit your predestination worldview. Also when God gave Satan permission to attack Job, Satan, not God sent the tornado that killed Job's children. Blaming God for everything bad that happens is as unbiblical as it is irrational. All your Bible verses prove is what I already said which is God has the ultimate power.

 

[TER]

The fall of Adam and Eve did not only affect mankind, but all of creation. All of it. At the moment they chose to place themselves over God and disobey Him Who had given them everything in Paradise, in effect, choosing separation from Him Who is Life and the Source of Life, every atom in all the universe was affected. (This would of course include the material earth and the forces of nature as well). We have been exiled from Eden because of our sins, and creation which we have been given dominion over (as jmdrake stated above) has been in labor pain since awaiting the rebirth of the new Day when the forces of evil and corruption and separation will be annihilated before the throne of God. If anyone is to blame for the natural disasters, it is not God (though, of course, He has power to make the entire creation become nonexistent at any given moment if He willed), but rather us.

But He loved us so much, that He entered into this corrupted creation, assumed our fallen condition, and by His sinless death on a cross, took upon Himself all the sins of the world so we too might find the path back to Paradise. He did not allow us to wallow in our sins with no chance of salvation, but took upon Himself the pain and sorrows and tears of all mankind so that we might one day become free of pain, become immune to sorrow, and to shed only of tears of joy, living forever with Him in Paradise in eternal loving communion. This is why we say 'In God We Trust'. For only a God Who has suffered like us and for us is a God worth trusting.

 

[MikeStanart]

Why even start up threads like this, that are only going to cause strife on this board?