In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

[doodle]

Today I glanced at a nickle I got back in change and noticed that it said "In God We Trust". While ago I had read an insurance clause that stated that damage from "Acts of God" were not covered.

Do you believe that Hurricanes, Earthquakes, Tornadoes are acts of God?

If you believe so, why do you think God sends them?

Please your own answers, no repetition of answers from Christian leaders like Pat Robertson, Falwell etc. who seem to think God controls everything on the planet.

 

[Vessol]

If you have an insurance clause that says "damage from "Acts of God" are not covered."

Then you need new insurance.

 

[doodle]

I'll look into that.

http://www.the-injury-lawyer-directory.com/article_god.html

 

[Sola_Fide]

Today I glanced at a nickle I got back in change and noticed that it said "In God We Trust". While ago I had read an insurance clause that stated that damage from "Acts of God" were not covered.

Do you believe that Hurricanes, Earthquakes, Tornadoes are acts of God?

If you believe so, why do you think God sends them?

Please your own answers, no repetition of answers from Christians leaders like Pat Robertson, Falwell etc.

1. First of all, let's clear up this meme that says "Falwell and Pat Robertson" are "Christian leaders". You can ask any Christian on this board who they think is an intellectual leader to them and I *promise* it is not going to be Falwell (who is dead btw) or Pat Robertson. The Christians I know in life and on this board are very well educated and get their philosophical opinions from a wide variety of scholars and speakers...none of which are Falwell or Robertson. Falwell and Pat Robertson are frankly laughed at in many Christian circles. They do not represent my political or even theological views.


2. The phrase "act of God" is a very appropriate phrase that sprang up in an era of America when the Bible was actually taught and believed. So the Biblical understanding that God is the governor of His creation really shouldn't surprise you.

Mark 4:37-41

A violent windstorm came up, and the waves began breaking into the boat, so that the boat was rapidly becoming swamped.

But Jesus was in the back of the boat, asleep on a cushion. So they woke him up and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care that we’re going to die?”

Then he got up, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea,“Hush! Be still!” Then the wind stopped blowing, and there was a great calm.

He said to them, “Why are you such cowards? Don’t you have any faith yet?”

They were overcome with fear and kept saying to one another, “Who is this man? Even the wind and the sea obey him!”

 

[tpreitzel]

I voted, "no", because generally destructive "acts" are attributed to God, but shouldn't be. * Personally, I view all members of the creation with a limited free agency in accordance with their design. In other words, each creature has a limited ability to act autonomously. However, those acts bear a price which is where God's judgment eventually appears. So, if one assumes that divine entities, e.g. angels, exist in addition to creatures directly sensed, the possibility exists for misuse of that free agency by divine entities as well as humanity. Hence, we have paranormal phenomena, e.g. generic UFOs, manifesting under certain circumstances and possiblity engaged in conflict among themselves and humanity. When these destructive acts manifest, humans generally and wrongly in my opinion attribute these acts directly to God. God can be both ultimately in control of outcomes yet allow autonomous expression. Naturally, this whole subject eventually delves into predestination, etc, but predestination is simply an attribute of God's omniscienence.

* God certainly allows the misuse of the free agency as the ultimate basis for judgment.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

I voted no, because I don't smoke crack.

But if I thought the answer was yes, the only reason I could see for that is because God likes to either kill people and make them suffer, or that God just doesn't give two shits about humanity.

I voted, "no", because generally destructive "acts" are attributed to God, but shouldn't be. Personally, I view all members of the creation with a limited free agency in accordance with their design. In other words, each creature has a limited ability to act autonomously. However, those acts bear a price which is where God's judgment eventually appears. So, if one assumes that divine entities, e.g. angels, exist in addition to creatures directly sensed, the possibility exists for misuse of that free agency. Hence, we have paranormal phenomena, e.g. UFOs, manifesting under certain circumstances and possiblity engaged in conflict among themselves and humanity. When these destructive acts manifest, humans generally and wrongly in my opinion attribute these acts directly to God. God can be both ultimately in control of outcomes yet allow autonomous expression. Naturally, this whole subject eventually delves into predestination, etc, but predestination is simply an attribute of God's omniscienence.

This was very weirdly explained, I'm not sure I understood it, but I think I did. And this view doesn't make any sense if you agree that a) God created the planet and the physics that govern it b) God is omnipotent and c) God is omniscient.

If we take an earthquake for example, say the one that recently fucked up Japan. God created the tectonic plates knowing that they would one day shift and cause an earthquake that would devastate Japan and kill innocent people. You can't get around that. Or God knew right before hand, and did nothing to stop it. Or God knew as it was happening and didn't intervene, even though it was his fault (he created the plates in such a way). Really given A-B-C, you can't really escape the fact that God made it happen. Even just A and B by themselves seem to logically dictate that God causes natural disasters.

I think I can respect a little bit more the theists who at least say God is responsible for the bad as well as the good, instead of the believers who just say "oh well if something good happens, then we can thank God. If something bad happens, it isn't God's doing (even though that contradicts certain dogmas we hold of his nature), and we will pray for him to alleviate the suffering."

 

[cubical]

Does anything happen that God does not allow to happen? No. Does God allow things we perceive as "bad" to happen? Yes. Does he cause all bad things to happen? No. There is the decretive will of God and the permissive will of God.

This is a hard subject to tackle because among other things God is timeless, whereas we are bound by time or rather 'cause and effect'.

 

[Sola_Fide]

There is probably no concept taught in Scripture so clear as God's sovereignty over His creation:

He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. -Matthew 5:45

 

[jmdrake]

Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air."

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When Jesus quieted the storm, He wasn't stopping an "act of God". He was stopping an act of Satan. Yes God ultimately rules everything, but He gave Satan enough rope to hang himself. And God didn't do that because He "likes to kill people". Satan challenged God's authority in heaven. So God is letting Satan make a fool of himself on earth.

 

[TheNcredibleEgg]

"Don't know for sure" is the only possible answer - since it's listed.

Honestly, how can anyone know for sure anything about God?

(Yes, I know "no" is the common sense answer - but just sayin' - not a single one of you knows for sure.)

 

[tpreitzel]

I voted no, because I don't smoke crack.

You're not alone.

But if I thought the answer was yes, the only reason I could see for that is because God likes to either kill people and make them suffer, or that God just doesn't give two shits about humanity.



This view doesn't make any sense if you agree that a) God created the planet and the physics that govern it b) God is omnipotent and c) God is omniscient.

If we take an earthquake for example, say the one that recently fucked up Japan. God created the tectonic plates knowing that they would one day shift and cause an earthquake that would devastate Japan and kill innocent people. You can't get around that. Or God knew right before hand, and did nothing to stop it. Or God knew as it was happening and didn't intervene, even though it was his fault (he created the plates in such a way).

I think I can respect a little bit more the theists who at least say God is responsible for the bad as well as the good, instead of the believers who just say "oh well if something good happens, then we can thank God. If something bad happens, it isn't God's doing (even though that contradicts certain dogmas we hold of his nature), and we will pray for him to alleviate the suffering."

Of course, my view makes sense and not only to me. Why? JUDGMENT CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE AUTONOMOUS EXPRESSION OF THE LIMITED FREE AGENCY. The free agency can NOT be expressed if God preemptively intervenes in the expression of that free will. Hence, judgment can NOT occur.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Well, God would have to control everything to be a completely sovereign and omnipresent, omnipotent entity.

 

[Vessol]

Oh look. Another topic that is fated to go to Hot Topics.

Why has Doodle not been suspended for flame-baiting?

 

[Sola_Fide]

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.(Psalm 135:7 NET)

When waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.(Jeremiah 10:13 ESV)

He makes the winds his messengers, and the flaming fire his attendant.(Psalm 104:4 NET)

For He commands and raises the stormy wind, which lifts up the waves of the sea.(Psalm 107:25)

God is sovereign over His creation and the weather, NOT satan or man.

 

[mport1]

I don't believe in god and cannot answer the question.

 

[tpreitzel]

A-A,

However, I do agree with part of your assessment that many Christians hold a twisted view of God which makes God out to be either a masochist, sadist, or some bizarre combination. Thankfully, God is neither of the latter. The Book of Revelation is ENTIRELY about the JUDGMENT of the limited free agency granted to ALL of His creation.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Of course, my view makes sense and not only to me. Why? JUDGMENT CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE AUTONOMOUS EXPRESSION OF THE LIMITED FREE AGENCY. The free agency can NOT be expressed if God preemptively intervenes in the expression of that free will. Hence, judgment can NOT occur.

What does that mean?

"Autonomous expression of the limited free agency" = free will of humans ?

And I don't understand the rest of it either.

 

[tpreitzel]

What does that mean?

"Autonomous expression of the limited free agency" = free will of humans ?

And I don't understand the rest of it either.

Generally, yes, the free agency is roughly equivalent to free "will" ... I can't express myself any clearer.

Ref: post #16 as well.

 

[crhoades]

As to the question of why...Robertson and Falwell would do well not to judge

1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Does anything happen that God does not allow to happen? No. Does God allow things we perceive as "bad" to happen? Yes. Does he cause all bad things to happen? No. There is the decretive will of God and the permissive will of God.

This is a hard subject to tackle because among other things God is timeless, whereas we are bound by time or rather 'cause and effect'.

Its all very mystical and complicated you see, too complicated for me to explain, but I'll just express a pretense of knowledge on the subject anyways.

But really as hard as you seem to try and avoid the truth with careful wording, even this explanation of yours does not work.

An example:

--------------------------

Bob the builder is omnipotent, omniscient, and timeless, and wants to create a fish tank. Bob creates his fish tank knowing that it has a flaw which will eventually (either in five seconds after he makes it, or five years after he makes it) crack and shatter, thus killing the fish. Bob of course knows how to make the fish tank in such a way that it will not crack and shatter. And bear in mind also that God says he loves the fish.

Did Bob just "allow" this to happen, or did Bob make it happen? Bob made the fish tank knowing it would happen when he could have easily made the tank last forever. Thus, in the instant Bob made the fish tank, he also made it to shatter. He made it to shatter, he made it shatter. He killed his fish, that he says he loves. And there is no "whoops", or "I guess I overlooked that" moment.