In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

[TER]

There’s nothing like mercy from an amoral “God” for actions one didn’t’ commit.

We suffer because of our sins, which we have done because of our free will. We pray for mercy from God for forgiveness of our sins.

 

[erowe1]

If it's true that the belief in Hell predates Christianity, then how do you explain the fact that the Hebrew Bible never mentions the concept of hell? (The term "Sheol" is not the same as hell).

If one were to look for pre-Christian sources that talk about the concept of Hell (whatever one means by that), there are a lot of sources one would need to investigate besides just the Old Testament. But even in the Old Testament, I think you go too far when you say the concept is never mentioned there. Here are a few places where something is described that fits the concept of Hell awfully well.

Isaiah 24:21-23

21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will (a)punish the host of (1)heaven, on high, And the (b)kings of the earth, on earth. 22 And they will be gathered together Like (a)prisoners in the (1)dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will (b)be punished. 23 Then the (a)moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the (b)LORD of hosts will reign on (c)Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.

Isaiah 66:22-24

22 "For just as the (a)new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your (b)offspring and your (c)name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from (a)new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All (1)mankind will come to (b)bow down before Me," says the LORD. 24*"Then they shall go forth and look On the (a)corpses of the men Who have (1b)transgressed against Me. For their (c)worm shall not die, (d)And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an (e)abhorrence to all (2)mankind."

Daniel 12:2

2 "And (a)many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, (b)these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting (1)contempt.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

And what are you that we should believe, even as your beliefs find no support in the 2000 year history of Christianity?

You shouldn't believe me. You should believe Scripture and the sovereignty of God. Someone asked why the sovereignty of God follows that we should not believe in eternal hell. Well, it's because God has a plan. If he is sovereign, then he has predetermined all things, and there is no such thing as free will. To create certain beings for the ultimate plan of going against him and then sentencing them to eternal hell is not just and is not forgiving, both of which God is. If you look at the resources I suggested twice already in this thread, you will see how this has much historical support and biblican support, as well. You can't just claim it has no support when you haven't even investigated my claims. Go to the resources I suggested and hear the arguments. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to, but do you really want to live a lie by spreading a message that has numerous errors? Find the truth and think about what you are saying before you just assume it's the way things are simply because that's the way it's been passed down through the churches. Be skeptical. Like I said, you don't have to believe me, but you would have to contradict your own message to do so. The idea of eternal torture and of free will is so blatantly against the sovereignty of God, that I fail to see how anyone who honestly considers this would be able to maintain the same worldview.

Like I said, I'm no prophet. I never said you should believe me. I'm simply the messenger of a bigger message and there are plenty more reputable sources you could get this from, some of which I suggested. Don't make this about me and my credibility. Make it about the search for truth.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The belief in hell predates Christianity and in fact the belief of such a place or condition is found in the ancient of civilizations, into the very deepest remnants of historical time. The fact is as far as there has been human wisdom, there has been a belief of a Supreme Being and an experiential condition of being after death, often times described as a place of emptiness and an insurmountable distance of separation.

There is a hell, my friend, make no mistake about it. Without first this knowledge, we cannot achieve further knowledge. And we do not know if our knowledge is true unless it is proven and tested. To increase, it must be refined from our own base misunderstandings, seeking correspondence with those of greater knowledge "lest we preach a different gospel" and stray from the faith.

If we have no belief of any eternal repercussions for the sins we do, we tread a dangerous, dangerous line. We ignore evil, which is growing stronger every day, manifesting itself more apparent in these last days. The prince of this world and father of lies grows stronger and stronger and the faith in the world is shifting, fracturing, all together beginning to disappear. But make no mistake, His Church will remain, as it has from the beginning, as He promised would be, until His Bride is united with the Bridegroom, and the doors of the wedding feast is open, and to those who have clothed themselves appropriately, who have in fact "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14, Galatians 3:27), they will enter therein and enjoy the Heavenly Banquet. To those who have not, they shall be

"cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen."(Matthew 22:13)

Lord have mercy on us and keep us by Your Grace!

We ignore the reality of hell at our own peril and put our eternal soul at stake!

By the Incarnate Word and Logos of God, Who has manifested and revealed to us the Father by the Holy Spirit, Who has taught us there will come a Final Day of Judgement, where He, Jesus Christ, will be the Judge of all who have ever lived. That Christ will be the Judge. Why?

"For as the Father has Life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have Life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man." (John 5:26)

Why? "because He is the Son of Man"

He is the Son of God by nature. He is the Judge, however, because He is the Son of Man. Because only by entering into creation, and assuming it in it's fallen state, could we truly believe and confidently say that He is a just Judge. By knowing it and experiencing and then overcoming it and restore it and sanctifying it. By living it, as we, His children live it. All of it. The joys of love, the sadness of tears, the wonder of heart, the hunger and fears.

And pain, nailed to a cross!

His teaching:

I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Fulfilling the prophecy of King David, from Psalm 22, as He prayed it and fulfilled it transfixed with nails upon the wood of the cross:

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
“He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

You have answered Me.

I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
You who fear the LORD, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!

All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
For the kingdom is the LORD’s,
And He rules over the nations.

All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.​

In the prophecy of Ezekiel 15, we are also given a glimpse of Christ's work, the True Vine, Who is thrown into the fire (Hades, Gehenna, Hell, whatever you wish to call it), so that He could be as fuel to the fire, thereby devouring it and consuming it, for our God is a "consuming fire." (Heb 12:29)

"Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: “Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest? Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on? Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work? Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?"

Christ is the Vine of Life. He is the True Vine.

The following teaching is that we too must act and be participants in our grafting into His vine, so that we too may flower and bear much fruit. We do so by following His commandments. By aligning our will with His.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Because He is the First-fruits of our new life in the Kingdom, He Who can make all things new.

"And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold I make all things new."
...
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."(Rev 21)

As Ron Paul would say, "you're demagoguing it!" Stop treating the "reality" of hell as a concrete fact and look at the counter-arguments. Those passages you cited are so vague and do not really address what you think it addresses. Again, look at the sources I mentioned and decide for yourself, but just try to think about the sovereignty of God. Think about my argument in earnest. If there was a sovereign God, would He allow His creation simply to suffer eternal torture out of ignorance? It is an obvious logical contradiction to believe in an eternal hell. This undermines the Christian faith.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

We suffer because of our sins, which we have done because of our free will. We pray for mercy from God for forgiveness of our sins.

There is no such thing as free will. If God is sovereign, which He certainly is, then people having free will would mean there is something we can do that He can't control. That would totally contradict God's sovereignty. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

 

[TER]

There is no such thing as free will. If God is sovereign, which He certainly is, then people having free will would mean there is something we can do that He can't control. That would totally contradict God's sovereignty. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

Your last few posts underscore the dangers of the innovate progressive misunderstandings of John Calvin regarding predestination, leading to all sorts of heretical teachings like that there is no punishment or hell for those who have done evil and have died unrepentant. In your vain and historically unsupported attempt to condition God's sovereignty to us having no free will (which actually WEAKENS His sovereignty by limiting Him from creating a creature with free will, which even I a sinner can do by virtue of having children), you have made us to be automatons, ignored the passages of Scripture above which clearly refute your innovative ideas that there is no eternal punishment, and have made God to be the author of evil.

BTW, this is not about you personally, or your credibility, but the credibility, reliability, historical consistency of the sources you have made mention of, which, quite frankly, is in error to the faith delivered once for all by the saints of the Church. I think it is you who should be more skeptical with the beliefs of these modern 'scholars' you are trying to endorse here when it is you who is making such fantastical and imaginative unsupported claims.

You are free to ignore Scripture, twist meanings of Scripture, and choose any innovative belief you wish. You are free to do so because you have free will. Ignore it if you will, but blaming God for the bad you do as being His will for you may work for now, but maybe not so much before His Judgement Seat.

Good luck with your beliefs! I guess in time we will all learn the truth.

 

[TER]

Stop treating the "reality" of hell as a concrete fact and look at the counter-arguments. Those passages you cited are so vague and do not really address what you think it addresses.

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."(Rev 21)

This verse is vague to you?

"cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen."(Matthew 22:13)

This is vague to you?

Wow. I think in your attempts to prop up a completely unsupported argument that there is no hell, even the most obvious things become vague.

Please spend more time learning the faith as held and maintained from the early Church by reading more patristic sources (which have proved by time to be in accordance to the truth revealed) instead of dabbling with the various imaginative beliefs of those contemporary sources you have mentioned.

 

[robert68]

There is no such thing as free will. If God is sovereign, which He certainly is, then people having free will would mean there is something we can do that He can't control. That would totally contradict God's sovereignty. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

Then you have no mind of your own and can’t possibly believe any of what is posted in your name.

 

[TER]

If God is sovereign, which He certainly is, then people having free will would mean there is something we can do that He can't control. That would totally contradict God's sovereignty. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

You seem to believe that God's sovereignty and omnipotence is somehow threatened by our free will. Who is the one who is limiting God?

That God can do all things is not what is being debated here. He, by definition, can do all things. And included in that is creating creatures who can have free will. He has made us, His children, in His image and likeness, to have freedom of will with a reasoning mind, so that when we follow His commands and do His will, we are doing so freely, under no coercion or temptation. Only then can we properly glorify Him. Only then can we gain greater knowledge of Him. Only then can we truly abide in love, which is never forced or coerced, but rather freely given and offered and shared.

It is paramount to understand that God's sovereignty is not threatened by Him giving us free will. Rather, His power and omnipotence is even more apparent and even more glorified because we have freely followed Him and freely loved Him.

 

[YumYum]

There is no such thing as free will. If God is sovereign, which He certainly is, then people having free will would mean there is something we can do that He can't control. That would totally contradict God's sovereignty. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

Did Holy Spirit tell you this, or is this your own opinion?

 

[robert68]

We suffer because of our sins, which we have done because of our free will. We pray for mercy from God for forgiveness of our sins.

No offense, but I’d be suffering if I tried to believe as you do, in collective guilt, and an immoral creator.

 

[TER]

No offense, but I’d be suffering if I tried to believe as you do, in collective guilt, and an immoral creator.

The Orthodox Church does not believe in collective guilt (that is a Western concept started by Saint Augustine) nor an immoral Creator.

But what your problem is is that you don't want to pick up your cross and bear it, but instead insult God because of it, maybe because you blame Him.

 

[robert68]

The Orthodox Church does not believe in collective guilt (that is a Western concept started by Saint Augustine) nor an immoral Creator.

But what your problem is is that you don't want to pick up your cross and bear it, but instead insult God because of it, maybe because you blame Him.

One is born guilty according to all of traditional Christianity, due to “man’s fall”; that’s collective guilt. And a “God” who authorizes barbarism is certainly immoral to those who consider barbarism wrong.

 

[TER]

One is born guilty according to all of traditional Christianity, due to “man’s fall”; that’s collective guilt. A “God” who authorizes barbarism is most certainly immoral.

I question your knowledge of the faith of the early Church. What is your proof that such a teaching in common 'to all of traditional Christianity'?

I offer you have none and your knowledge of the history of the Church is rather pretty limited.

The thing you should be worrying about is whether you blame God for your struggles just as Adam did.

 

[robert68]

I question your knowledge of the faith of the early Church. What is your proof that such a teaching in common 'to all of traditional Christianity'?

I offer you have none and your knowledge of the history of the Church is rather pretty limited.

I see according to Wikipedia, “Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea that the guilt of original sin is passed down through generations” (not that I accept the claim), but it believes in collective punishment, which is no better and very immoral, as far as I’m concerned.

Regarding this from Wiki:
“...It follows Maximus the Confessor and others in characterizing the change in human nature as the introduction of a "deliberative will" (θέλημα γνωμικόν) in opposition to the "natural will" (θέλημα φυσικόν) created by God which tends toward the good...”
This contradicts what you’ve been saying about “free will” in general, and the source of “evil”. I believe "Erowe1" pointed this out earlier in the thread.

The thing you should be worrying about is whether you blame God for your struggles just as Adam did.

There's no such dilemma when you don't believe in an immoral God. Also ...First cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye.

 

[TER]

I see according to Wikipedia, “Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea that the guilt of original sin is passed down through generations” (not that I accept the claim), but it believes in collective punishment, which is no better and very immoral, as far as I’m concerned.

I'm sorry, what do you mean by collective punishment? This is something I have never heard of.

Regarding this from Wiki:
“...It follows Maximus the Confessor and others in characterizing the change in human nature as the introduction of a "deliberative will" (θέλημα γνωμικόν) in opposition to the "natural will" (θέλημα φυσικόν) created by God which tends toward the good...”
This contradicts what you’ve been saying about “free will” in general, and the source of “evil”. I believe "Erowe1" pointed this out earlier in the thread.

No, it doesn't. You are mistaken. Please go back and learn some more. Nothing about what you just wrote contradicts free will.

There's no such dilemma when you don't believe in an immoral God. Also ...First cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye.

That is an excellent quote. You should study more of the teachings of the Person Who said it.

 

[robert68]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by collective punishment? This is something I have never heard of.

“Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups.” In this case, all descendents of the 'first humans' are collectively punished for the “sins” the 'first humans' committed.

That is an excellent quote. You should study more of the teachings of the Person Who said it.

Yet its message is beneath you to follow, and your piety leads you to mistaken assumptions about the writings I’m familiar with.

 

[doodle]

Bit off topic:

10:00 AM ET, 05/25/2011
Mind-boggling tornado count, deaths raise hard questions about causes, warnings & response
By Andrew Freedman

Approximately 1,000 tornadoes. Nearly 500 dead. The numbers are staggering as the 2011 tornado season rages at a record pace. From the the EF5 tornado that struck Joplin, Mo., killing at least 122 people to become the deadliest tornado in the U.S. since 1950, to the pair of explosive and deadly April tornado outbreaks, and now also yesterday’s Plains outbreak moving east today, this year’s barrage of violent twisters has people asking questions about everything from the impact of climate change on tornadoes, to the accuracy and effectiveness of short-term severe weather warnings.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gs-and-response/2011/05/25/AG6UnCBH_blog.html

 

[doodle]

As Bush flies to Israel, 'rogue' tornadoes rip Midwest US

The Associated Press described the storms as "a freak cluster of tornados."

A sheriff in Wisconsin's Kenosha County, where 11 houses were destroyed, told the news agency he had "never seen damage like this in the summertime when we have potential for tornadoes.

Many pro-Israel Christians believe that God has and will use "natural" disasters to judge America (and other nations) for trying to steal Israel's land for the creation of a 23rd Arab state called Palestine.

http://www.raptureintheairnow.com/r...-obama-and-tornadoes-march-across-us-tomorrow

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2294

Porter: Tornadoes Due To Legal Abortion, Israel Policy

http://www.politicususa.com/en/the-darker-side-of-yhwh-janet-porter-says-tornadoes-were-god’s-wrath

 

[TER]

God is not angry with you...

Posted today by Andrew York in this blog


In light of wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, and other natural disasters, I've heard so much about God's judgment. So many influential voices seem to point to a God of wrath, and the idea that things are going to get worse, but to "take heart, because (God) has overcome the world", and we just have to hang on. I feel as though my response to these things should be to beg Jesus to appease the wrath of God for this world... then I realize that He's already done this...

His wrath was satisfied in the cross.

What does that mean for us? ...The PERFECT love of Christ casts out fear...and in a fearful world, what have we been given? The ministry of reconciliation... we carry on what Christ came to do - which was bring Heaven to earth and show the world a Father who loves them - so in turn, their fear can be cast out.

We need revelation of the Love of God. I've recently listened to a teaching that impacted me deeply - the pastor in essence said "If we don't show the world the love of God, then the world will interpret God through earthquakes."

Jesus rebuked a storm... So obviously the wind and waves carried within them a demonic spirit that needed to be cast out. If it was from God, then Jesus rebuked His father..???

We're called to make this world look like that world.

HEAVEN... no tears, no chaos, no sickness, no fear, no competition, a complete unveiling of the God who the Bible says IS LOVE. How much of Heaven do we want to see on earth? It's not time to run to a cave and pack with us as much as we can so we can "stick it out" in the end times - we have a responsibility, let's face the storms head on.

Let faith, hope and love arise, and let's apply the solution which God's equipped us with. I feel that we've lost some courage - thinking that we're not holy enough vessels to be priests and kings. But, we've been made holy, and blameless. We need to dust ourselves off and keep going...Repentance then is not fearful, it's freeing. Repentance means to change the way we think. We need to think rightly of Him and ourselves...repentance further lines us up with the truth - and He is patient in this process of sanctification. Are you aligned with faith, hope and love?

I've had an amazing time with the LORD in a short season of drawing away with Him here in Korea. Much of my time has been given to prayer and process. I'm so blessed... it's ridiculous.

I had the opportunity to share in a church in Korea on Easter. I shared on the Father Heart of God, I've never really done that before, but as the Spirit began to minister to the crowd, I realized how important the message of God's love was here. After I spoke for close to an hour, the pastor asked if I would personally meet each of the small groups, and help "council" them. I felt that all I did in each group, after hearing there problems, was tell them "God is not disappointed with you. He's not angry with you" - It was so refreshing to see that this simple revelation brought smiles to many that day.

God is not angry with you...