I'm done making excuses for the State

Start with the basics. Do you like to eat, drink, and breathe? This is not rhetorical. If so, then do you want to be dependent on others or yourself. Again these are very basic but honest questions. Please give me your honest answer.

First, replying in someone else's stead distorts no facts. Second, I was typing my response before I saw your reply.

To answer your question, though: I prefer a mix. I prefer to depend on myself for those thing that I do well, and I depend on others for things that they can do for me with more value, even after compensating them.

Ideally, I would be self-sufficient and have no external wants. But in this scarce world, we must all depend on others.

So my question to you is: would you prefer to depend on people who must vie for your patronage, or those who are, by monopoly privilage, are certain to receive your business for whatever price they ask?
 
You'd pay your normal security/defense agency to look after the place while your gone.


I mean, this is one of the weakest "but how would..." scenario that I've ever seen. Even today, with the state protection of property, you can lose your home to adverse possession after some subjectively determined amount of time, usually many years. But if you go on vacation today, do you alert the cops or the neighbors to defend your home?
Do not Ass-U-Me. Straight talk. Answer the question. "Do you like to eat, drink, and breathe? If so, then do you wish to be in control or out of control?
 
trap01.jpg
 
First, replying in someone else's stead distorts no facts. Second, I was typing my response before I saw your reply.

To answer your question, though: I prefer a mix. I prefer to depend on myself for those thing that I do well, and I depend on others for things that they can do for me with more value, even after compensating them.

Ideally, I would be self-sufficient and have no external wants. But in this scarce world, we must all depend on others.

So my question to you is: would you prefer to depend on people who must vie for your patronage, or those who are, by monopoly privilage, are certain to receive your business for whatever price they ask?
My world is not a scarce world. I would rather eat quinoa than rice. I would rather wear hemp clothing than cotton or linen. I would rather travel the world in peace rather than violently. I will not pay the monopolist their ransom.
 
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My world is not a scarce world. I would rather eat quinoa than rice. I would rather wear hemp clothing than cotton or linen. I would rather travel the world in peace rather than violently. I will not pay the monopolist their ransom.

Ok.
 
A monopoly on violence is the first and GRANDEST offence against liberty and private property. The second is a monopoly on "money" creation.

The State is a self serving power structure that is INHERENTLY corrupt and if the State, if only for a moment, is just, will be overridden and beaten into submission to serve those willing to do anything to serve their own needs.

There is NO SUCH THING as society. It is an intectually dishonest construct that even the good support, not out of love of justice but supported through FEAR.

When you have no fear, the State and all forms of involuntary governance become UNECESSARY.

I do NOT need The State to protect my private property. I DO NOT need a majority rule government to GIVE ME my natural rights.

I will live in a constant state of PAIN before I submit to involuntary governance. I will be beaten, trashed and even BROKEN before my SELF EVIDENT rights are protected by violent monopoly.

I will NOT submit to intectually dishonest arguments based around FEAR.

FUCK FEAR. FEAR leads to HORRIBLE decisions.

I PREY on the aggressive. They treat us like GAME. In RESPONSE, I am a MONGOOSE. I CANNOT be defeated. Death, life, it's all the same. Fuck em. FUCK EM.

The most poisonous of creatures are WEAK. Their WEAKNESS drives their evil. It is their WEAKNESS OF HEART AND SOUL that is their demise. I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THERE IS A GOD OR NOT, BUT IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Protecting the weak will be your salvation - God or not.

The State is VENOM. A venom that courses through all institutions, all people and destroys the WILL to fight back.

The State IS violence. The State in ALL forms is DISEASE. A PLAGUE. SATAN's WORK.

But shhhhhhh don't listen to reason. We need to be governed...after all...who will protect us from the bad guys ;)?
 
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I'd be an anarchist myself if i thought it wasnt impossible. There's *ZERO* chance it would work in todays world, too much hostility and very, very few ppl understand and respect private property. I think the most practical system that'd produce the least violence would be something similar to the articles of confederation except i'd go further and have a federal govt limited strictly to administrative duties, no power on force, security or military.

 
I like to eat, drink, and breathe. I like to be in control.
Thank you for the straight answer. I do too. Now, my solution to accomplish this goal may be different than yours. Here is how I approach achieving being in control of my food, water, and air.

I find property that is not being used. In 2011, I must buy it from the bankers which sucks because I should be able to buy it from an individual, but I digress on that point. I buy myself a little plot of land. Then I stake the corners with boundary pins so that everyone else in the world knows that I lay claim to that plot.

Then I dig a water well, fence part of it and raise animals to eat, fence more of it to raise a garden, and I build a house and garage for my comfort. I claim ownership of the land, improvements, food, and water. Since air is abundant, then my main concern is that others do not pollute the air that I breathe.

In this way, I am in control of my food, water, and housing.

The State is created by my actions because I laid claim to my piece of the pie and when someone else wants to lay claim to my claim then a legal claim is better than the two of us getting into a Hatfield & McCoy battle.
 
Thank you for the straight answer. I do too. Now, my solution to accomplish this goal may be different than yours. Here is how I approach achieving being in control of my food, water, and air.

I find property that is not being used. In 2011, I must buy it from the bankers which sucks because I should be able to buy it from an individual, but I digress on that point. I buy myself a little plot of land. Then I stake the corners with boundary pins so that everyone else in the world knows that I lay claim to that plot.

Then I dig a water well, fence part of it and raise animals to eat, fence more of it to raise a garden, and I build a house and garage for my comfort. I claim ownership of the land, improvements, food, and water. Since air is abundant, then my main concern is that others do not pollute the air that I breathe.

In this way, I am in control of my food, water, and housing.

The State is created by my actions because I laid claim to my piece of the pie and when someone else wants to lay claim to my claim then a legal claim is better than the two of us getting into a Hatfield & McCoy battle.


As I said earlier, you are still trying to define your world from within the limits of that which you have been presented as a land serf. You no more need to buy titled land from some unjust 'owner' than I need to buy the air I breathe from someone claiming likewise to be its owner. Bringing such an absurd and irrelevant argument just shows how detached you are from any meaningful discussion of the origin and nature of just property and its rights thereby inclusive.

Then there is of course your defacto presumption that, setting aside your properties origination, only a criminal gang writ large could possibly protect it. Do you have any rational data or arguments to back up your claim? If you are to tell me that the state can provide this service through force better than a market can through voluntary exchange, then by logical extension why not the very food you purport to produce? Why not clothing and shelter? If you expect me to accept on blind faith and with no rational supporting data that the state can provide this service better than voluntary exchange then there must be something I am missing, there must be something truly magical and mystical about the state. And if this is so, we should likely turn over all production along with the means to the state. Clearly committees and lobbyists are a preferable and more efficient path to the satisfaction of individual needs than voluntary exchange and rational self interest...
 
Wesker1982,
Please present your competing offer.

CHILL, lol. I wasn't on the forums at all last night after my last post.

But anyways, I don't know why you are asking this. We both object to State, i.e. violent, control of markets. I asked a couple of questions, and I didn't get all uptight when you didn't instantly answer them, and they were the main point of my post:

Yeah, since no other options are available now, I am sticking with it too. That does not mean I do not advocate that it be done another way. I would rather it be done without violence, even though I might never see it happen.

If you were alive before slavery was abolished, and you believed it would not be abolished any time in your life, would you advocate the abolition of slavery? Would you object to it on the grounds that "this is what we have now", or would you at least support the idea of it?

You ignored this, which I didn't really mind since you admitted to objecting to State control of markets. That was good enough for me. But now you have diverted the attention (via red herring) from the critical part of my post.

I expect you to either change the subject or ignore my answer, but whatever:

Right now the State violently monopolizes this service. My competing offer would be to allow people to opt out and hire competition. This is where I ask you to use whatever knowledge of the market you must have. If the violent monopoly were abolished for this service, no doubt that entrepreneurs, who would be more efficient due to the feedback mechanisms of the pricing system, would provide this service.

It is like you are asking for an exact business model, but you should know that this is not a prerequisite for advocating voluntary markets. I mean, I would like to see you elaborate business models for all of the government functions violently monopolized now. And if you couldn't, it would be folly for anyone who even slightly understands how the voluntary market works to object to it on these grounds.

If the mail isn't provided by a violent monopoly, how else would it be delivered? Can't give me an business model? I accept the answer that, no matter how it is provided, a violent monopoly is not necessary to deliver mail. Competition and profit would give entrepreneurs great incentive to come up with business models that would satisfy consumers way more efficiently than a violent monopoly, because if the service is poor, they lose money. I hope that the profit/loss incentive doesn't need a ton of explanation here. The profit/loss signal also helps with economic calculation, it makes possible efficiency that cannot be achieved with a violent monopoly.

With that said, the actual model would look something like this:

Title Registry (Bob Murphy)

In market anarchy, who would define property rights? If someone hands over the money to purchase a house, what guarantees does he have?

This is a complex issue, and I won’t be able to give specifics, since the actual market solution would depend on the circumstances of the case and would draw on the legal expertise (far greater than mine) of the entire community.23* I can, however, offer some general remarks.

Whatever (if any) the abstract or metaphysical nature of property law, the purpose of public titles is quite utilitarian; they are necessary to allow individuals to effectively plan and coordinate their interactions with each other. Specialized firms (perhaps distinct from arbitration agencies) would keep records on the property titles, either for a specific area or group of individuals. Title registry would probably be accomplished through a complex, hierarchical web of such firms.

The fear of rogue agencies, unilaterally declaring themselves “owner” of everything, is completely unfounded. In market anarchy, the companies publicizing property rights would not be the same as the companies enforcing those rights. More important,competition between firms would provide true “checks and balances.” If one firm began flouting the community norms established and codified on the market, it would go out of business, just as surely as a manufacturer of dictionaries would go broke if its books contained improper definitions.


23*My stance may appear slippery, but imagine that a Cuban economist advises Castro to abolish socialism and allow a free market to develop. Must the economist predict beforehand whether and how many shopping malls will exist under his proposal?

And:

In a laissez-faire society, there would be no government to pre-empt the field of registering deeds. Businesses in a free market would take over this function, since it is a salable service. These companies would keep records of titles and would probably offer the additional service of title insurance (a service already offered by specialized insurance companies today). Title insurance protects the insured against loss resulting from a defect in the title of the property he buys (as, for example, if the long-lost niece of a deceased former owner shows up and claims the property by inheritance). It would substantially reduce problems of conflicting claims, since title insurance companies would be unlikely to insure a title without first checking to make sure there was no conflict. In a free society, title insurance might also protect the insured against loss of his property due to aggression or fraud committed against him. In this case, the aggressor would be dealt with in the same manner as would any other aggressor (a subject which will be covered in Chapters 9 and 10).

There would probably be a plurality of companies competing in the field of title registration and insurance, so they would no doubt find it in their interest to maintain a computerized central listing of titles in the same way that other agencies now keep extensive files on the credit rating of consumers. In this way, they would be in the same relationship of cooperative competition as are present-day insurance companies.

Because they would have competition, title insurance companies would have to be extremely careful to maintain a good business reputation. No honest person would jeopardize the value of his property by registering it with a company which had a reputation for dishonest dealing. If he made use of a shady company, other individuals and firms would have doubts about the validity of his title and would be reluctant to buy his property or to loan money on it. In a totally free market, companies would usually act honestly because it would be in their interest to do so. (The question of dishonest companies will be dealt with in Chapter 11.)

http://freekeene.com/files/marketforliberty.pdf

Or, basically, if the way the State does it now is profitable and efficient, free market models would imitate it. So if you are so confident that the State does it the best way possible, you should have no fear since if this is the case, the free market model would copy it.
 
You'd pay your normal security/defense agency to look after the place while your gone.


I mean, this is one of the weakest "but how would..." scenario that I've ever seen. Even today, with the state protection of property, you can lose your home to adverse possession after some subjectively determined amount of time, usually many years. But if you go on vacation today, do you alert the cops or the neighbors to defend your home?
No, I don't ask my neighbors or law enforcement to watch my place. When I get back from extended vacation, if someone would try and homestead my home, all I have to do to prove that it is my home is go to my county seat and get the deed to prove ownership. That's it. Very efficient and almost free. Screw hiring a bunch of "protective agencies." Who needs em? What if I had a bad year and couldn't afford the security team? SOL? I'm not buying what your selling.
 
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As I said earlier, you are still trying to define your world from within the limits of that which you have been presented as a land serf. You no more need to buy titled land from some unjust 'owner' than I need to buy the air I breathe from someone claiming likewise to be its owner. Bringing such an absurd and irrelevant argument just shows how detached you are from any meaningful discussion of the origin and nature of just property and its rights thereby inclusive.

Then there is of course your defacto presumption that, setting aside your properties origination, only a criminal gang writ large could possibly protect it. Do you have any rational data or arguments to back up your claim? If you are to tell me that the state can provide this service through force better than a market can through voluntary exchange, then by logical extension why not the very food you purport to produce? Why not clothing and shelter? If you expect me to accept on blind faith and with no rational supporting data that the state can provide this service better than voluntary exchange then there must be something I am missing, there must be something truly magical and mystical about the state. And if this is so, we should likely turn over all production along with the means to the state. Clearly committees and lobbyists are a preferable and more efficient path to the satisfaction of individual needs than voluntary exchange and rational self interest...
Then I take it you do not like to be in control of your food, water, and housing. I do, so can you afford me that privilege?
 
No, I don't ask my neighbors or law enforcement to watch my place. When I get back from extended vacation, if someone would try and homestead my home, all I have to do to prove that it is my home is go to my county seat and get the deed to prove ownership. That's it. Very efficient and almost free. Screw hiring a bunch of "protective agencies." Who needs em? What if I had a bad year and couldn't afford the security team? SOL? I'm not buying what your selling.

If by very efficient you mean brutally repressive, and by virtually free you mean astronomically expensive with no cinsumer check, then yep, you've basically nailed it. Congrats!
 
Then I take it you do not like to be in control of your food, water, and housing. I do, so can you afford me that privilege?

Using thugs with guns to enforce your will =/= in control of your property

I will always allow you to live in any manner you choose, including as a slave if that is your choice. The only thing I ask is you allow me to live as I want, free from the initiation of violent aggression. Are you so willing to return the courtesy to me?
 
If by very efficient you mean brutally repressive, and by virtually free you mean astronomically expensive with no cinsumer check, then yep, you've basically nailed it. Congrats!
Explain what you mean by brutally repressive and astronomically expensive in my description of a basic State below.

Thank you for the straight answer. I do too. Now, my solution to accomplish this goal may be different than yours. Here is how I approach achieving being in control of my food, water, and air.

I find property that is not being used. In 2011, I must buy it from the bankers which sucks because I should be able to buy it from an individual, but I digress on that point. I buy myself a little plot of land. Then I stake the corners with boundary pins so that everyone else in the world knows that I lay claim to that plot.

Then I dig a water well, fence part of it and raise animals to eat, fence more of it to raise a garden, and I build a house and garage for my comfort. I claim ownership of the land, improvements, food, and water. Since air is abundant, then my main concern is that others do not pollute the air that I breathe.

In this way, I am in control of my food, water, and housing.

The State is created by my actions because I laid claim to my piece of the pie and when someone else wants to lay claim to my claim then a legal claim is better than the two of us getting into a Hatfield & McCoy battle.
 
Using thugs with guns to enforce your will =/= in control of your property

I will always allow you to live in any manner you choose, including as a slave if that is your choice. The only thing I ask is you allow me to live as I want, free from the initiation of violent aggression. Are you so willing to return the courtesy to me?
I'm not using thugs with guns to enforce my will. I don't have any idea what you are talking about.
 
Explain what you mean by brutally repressive and astronomically expensive in my description of a basic State below.

I have already responded to said post. You have failed to address said response.

If you would like me to help organize your thoughts for hou to better align with the discussion at hand, perhaps you could answer a few questions:

1. What authority does your 'state' have to 'protect' your 'property'?

2. How is your 'state' funded?

3. What if I dont want to participate in your 'state'?

4. What if I want to compete with your 'state'?
 
Then you must clarify. How exactly is your 'state' 'protecting' your 'property'?
By keeping my properly recorded deed in a safe place and making laws which say something like, "You are a proud owner of land with boundaries W,X,Y,Z located in "My County, My Section, My Lot & Block" If anyone tries to take it away from you without due process, then you can go to your local County Clerk and get a copy of this duly recorded deed to prove ownership." That'll be a processing fee of $10 please (Tax).

That's how the State protects property.
 
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