If Not Paul, Then Consider Baldwin

Theocrat

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
9,550
As many of us are saddened by Congressman Paul's recent actions to drop out of the race, suspend his campaign, or whatever other term(s) one wants to use to describe it, I would like to take this opportunity to invite those of you who have never heard of Dr. Chuck Baldwin, the Presidential nominee for the Constitution Party, to consider his campaign for the Presidency. Unlike Bob Barr (the Libertarian Presidential nominee), Dr. Baldwin actually endorsed Congressman Paul for President when he first began to run, and you'll find that Dr. Baldwin's position on the issues is pretty similar to Dr. Paul's. Dr. Baldwin is a personal friend of Congressman Paul's, and he is a firm lover of liberty and one whom I believe will carry on the "Revolution" in the same spirit that Dr. Paul has.

As far as grassroots support is concerned, Dr. Baldwin's "campaign for liberty" needs more support, particularly in the area of State-by-State ballot access. Visit this website, and you can find out the progress of this process as well as what you can do to help in your own State. No matter if you agree with Dr. Baldwin on all the issues or not, I encourage you to help support this candidate who truly believes in Constitutional government and follows the admonitions of our Founding Fathers, as Congressman Paul does.
 
Baldwin is not a viable candidate. Perhaps he's better historically and ideologically than Barr, but the Barr candidacy stands a FAR better chance of reaching the mainstream, and that matters more.
 
Principle, Not Expediency

Baldwin is not a viable candidate. Perhaps he's better historically and ideologically than Barr, but the Barr candidacy stands a FAR better chance of reaching the mainstream, and that matters more.

Though I understand why you would say that, it's time we started voting for principle over expediency. Otherwise, why not just support a mainstream candidate, like McCain or Obama? Dr. Baldwin has been more supportive and consistent with Congressman Paul's views and vision than Bob Barr has, in my opinion. I think this "Revolution" of ours deserves to get behind the best candidate who espouses and lives the same way that our beloved congressman has. Comparatively speaking, Dr. Baldwin fares much better in his philosophy of Constitutional government than Bob Barr does.
 
Baldwin is not a viable candidate. Perhaps he's better historically and ideologically than Barr, but the Barr candidacy stands a FAR better chance of reaching the mainstream, and that matters more.


NO 3rd party candidate is "viable" in the sense of being capable of actually being elected... But campaigning and/or voting for a particular candidate can allow you to both deliver a message to other voters AND with the final tally, "demonstrate" both contempt against the current two party system and "show" your support FOR certain things.

With the Libertarian Party, the general public will think a lot of people support for "Libertinism" (or whatever it's called... some to do with Pot, Porn, Prostitutes & stuff -- most people ARE that clueless, and that message doesn't do much good does it?) -- and the Pols will think it is a count of everyone who is one of those "insane anarchists" who also want to smoke pot, read c. porn & hire prostitutes (because like it or not, that *IS* how they think of the LP).

With the Constitution Party, the general public will at least think it has *something* to do with the "Constitution" (whatever that is... wasn't it some piece of paper written by some dudes like 1000 years ago or something? And you know even if they're THAT clueless it STILL works!) -- and the Pols will understand that it is a count of those "dangerous" people who want that darn piece of paper obeyed (you know... the kind that know about posse comitatus, the "militia" kind of people -- God, Guns & Government OUT of their life.)

Of the two... I'd say Constitution Party definitely sends the better message... even people with really low IQ's (say like GWB) would probably figure it out ( if you give him a few days).
 
If the Constitution Party folks in NY mobilize to try and get Baldwin on the ballot here, he has my vote (yes I have contacted them, but no reply back).
 
Though I understand why you would say that, it's time we started voting for principle over expediency.

Because while principle is important, it's also important that the candidate be capable of winning. Barr is far more capable of breaking into the mainstream than Baldwin, so while Baldwin may be a touch closer to ideological purity, it's worth the compromise in order to win the race.

Otherwise, why not just support a mainstream candidate, like McCain or Obama?

Because we are not limited to picking between absolute convenience and absolute principle. We need to seek a balance between the two. It's a compromise, and compromise is the very essence of politics.

Dr. Baldwin has been more supportive and consistent with Congressman Paul's views and vision than Bob Barr has, in my opinion. I think this "Revolution" of ours deserves to get behind the best candidate who espouses and lives the same way that our beloved congressman has. Comparatively speaking, Dr. Baldwin fares much better in his philosophy of Constitutional government than Bob Barr does.

Yes, but keep in mind that Ron Paul only gained traction because he was considered a viable candidate, given media coverage, and allowed access to the debates. Viability is important. Barr isn't perfect, but Baldwin isn't perfect either - however both of them are "above the line" at which a candidate ceases being a good option and become a "lesser evil".
 
Must read political strategy:


What is a Political Platform/Party?
By Carl Milsted

What is a political platform? This looks like a dumb question. But it is not. The answer is not trivial, and it is an answer that many Libertarian Party members fail to grasp. There are important subtleties.

To answer this question, we have to answer the more basic question: what is a political party?
What is a Party?

A political party is a caucus taken from the whole of the voting population. That is, people of similar mind form an organization that agrees to run one candidate for a particular seat. By forming such a caucus, they concentrate their core concerns at the cost of having to compromise among themselves.

That is, consider if 2 fascists and 55 libertarians were on the ballot. Under such circumstances, a fascist is likely to win, even in a heavily libertarian district. For this reason it is in the interest of libertarians to get together and decide on just one candidate to support. And once the libertarians do so, the fascists need to do likewise in order to have a chance at winning.

Note that this process has a price. Each of those 55 libertarian candidates may well have been the favorite of some of the libertarians in the district. However, in order to have a libertarian, supporters of 54 of the candidates must surrender their favorite choice in order to ensure that a fascist does not win. (And the same goes for the other side.)

We could imagine more than one libertarian grouping. If the district is sufficiently libertarian, two such groupings might be viable, or even three. But the more groupings there are, the more likelihood of a non-libertarian winning. A smaller tent allows more purity at the price of less chance of winning.

In some parliamentary systems, smallish minorities can still win elections due to proportional representation. In the U.S. system, a party has to include enough factions so that it can be the majority somewhere. When I say "include enough" I mean both activists, fellow travellers, and swing voters.
It's the Consensus

So how do we define our parties? This is the job of the platforms of each party. Just as each party compromises within itself to produce a consensus candidate from within, each party also produces a consensus statement of its political values to help define the party.

Because this must be a consensus position, fuzziness is necessary. Strong positions taken on every issue can shrink the coalition. Activists can storm out and swing voters can look elsewhere.

But note that we do not need to have consensus on every issue to have a party. We just need enough positioning to define those of similar mind. Diversity must be tolerated for the coalition to be politically viable.
It's Now

People move between parties. Independent voters and ticket mixers move from one year to the next. As such, it makes sense for a political platform to reflect the consensus for what needs to be done now, vs. some excessively longterm vision. More importantly, this is the case for the mainstream parties in the U.S.

Even if you prefer that a platform talk of ultimate visions, this is a bad idea because this is not the popular semantic definition of a platform. To put in longterm visions into a platform is to cause confusion; many people will misinterpret forward looking statements as calls to implement such actions now. This shrinks the coalition!
Does the LP Have a Platform?

The Libertarian Party does not have a platform in the sense of the major parties; the LP has an ultimate vision of the ideal government. Yes, it has some statements of what should be done now, but it also has statements that are intended to be done later. By mixing the two, the LP causes confusion and loses votes.

Further, the LP Platform is not a realistic attempt to build a coalition of like-minded people that is big enough to actually win elections. There are few within the party who think that Americans are ready for what is in the platform. Instead, there are two "wishful" victory scenarios:

1. The LP and related organization can educate the people where they will eventually fine pure libertarianism acceptable. This is to happen even though the government controls most of education and statists own most of the media.
2. Statism will eventually cause economic and/or social collapse. At this point people will be desperate enough for change that they will try anything. Our job is to be there and be organized when this happens. (This is how the Bolsheviks took power.)

A real political party (in a democratic system) tries to win elections... now. This means balancing ideology with reality. This means polling and focus groups. This means "listening tours." "Party of Principle" is a contradiction in terms.

So how many real issue polls have libertarian commissioned? Sad to say, my polling at www.quiz2d.com is about as good as we have, and that ain't very. This is because too few Libertarian activists care about such things. This needs to be fixed.
Does the Platform Matter?

One of the main arguments that I have heard from those who want to keep the platform pure and visionary is that "no one reads political platforms." To this I point out:

* The very political do read platforms. These are just the kind of people likely to become activists in a new political party.
* The political press reads platforms, and their stories about our candidates reflect this.
* The opposition reads our platform. When a moderate Libertarian threatens to win a significant number of votes, the major party opposition usually runs negative ads in the last weeks of the election quoting our platform.
* The LP national staff reads the platform and strives to make all press releases and literature conform to the platform. They are legally required to do so by our bylaws. The results hurt our candidates and our recruitment efforts.

Having a real platform is important.
 
Constitution Party needs to remove some of their more Theocratic aspects and become a political organization instead of a religious organization that masks themselves. As long as they continue to attempt to define how others should live their life, I cannot in good conscience support "Dr." Baldwin.

(btw, only a complete assclown actually uses DR. when the title is honorary...just my two cents)
 
Considered and rejected. While I agree with a lot of what Mr. Baldwin has to say, I can't support candidates running on the CP ticket because the CP platform is far too theocratic and pandering to bible-thumpers to earn my support. I don't respect arguments that use god's law as their justification, whatever that is.
 
NO 3rd party candidate is "viable" in the sense of being capable of actually being elected... But campaigning and/or voting for a particular candidate can allow you to both deliver a message to other voters AND with the final tally, "demonstrate" both contempt against the current two party system and "show" your support FOR certain things.

A presidential candidacy is not the most effective use of donor dollars and activist hours. If you want to run for the presidency (a long shot, but possible), then run for the Presidency. But if you want to send a message or educate people - there are better uses of your money.

With the Libertarian Party, the general public will think a lot of people support for "Libertinism" (or whatever it's called... some to do with Pot, Porn, Prostitutes & stuff -- most people ARE that clueless, and that message doesn't do much good does it?) -- and the Pols will think it is a count of everyone who is one of those "insane anarchists" who also want to smoke pot, read c. porn & hire prostitutes (because like it or not, that *IS* how they think of the LP).

The LP has had 35 years to educate voters, and still there is rampant ignorance. The idea of pushing LP presidential candidates for the purpose of voter education has had its day. Now is the time, especially considering the growing revolution, that the LP actually try for the presidency. It's a long shot, and if I ran the show I wouldn't advocate it, but that's what the LP is doing and there's a shot of it working, so I support it.

With the Constitution Party, the general public will at least think it has *something* to do with the "Constitution" (whatever that is... wasn't it some piece of paper written by some dudes like 1000 years ago or something? And you know even if they're THAT clueless it STILL works!) -- and the Pols will understand that it is a count of those "dangerous" people who want that darn piece of paper obeyed (you know... the kind that know about posse comitatus, the "militia" kind of people -- God, Guns & Government OUT of their life.)

And yet the Constitution Party is still ignored. In fact, of the two, the Libertarian party is larger by orders of magnitude. So while I agree that the CP has a better name, the LP is a better party and Barr is a better candidate.
 
Constitution Party needs to remove some of their more Theocratic aspects and become a political organization instead of a religious organization that masks themselves. As long as they continue to attempt to define how others should live their life, I cannot in good conscience support "Dr." Baldwin.

(btw, only a complete assclown actually uses DR. when the title is honorary...just my two cents)


Well, anyone who has a quote from FDR on a Ron Paul forum... nuff said.
 
A presidential candidacy is not the most effective use of donor dollars and activist hours. If you want to run for the presidency (a long shot, but possible), then run for the Presidency. But if you want to send a message or educate people - there are better uses of your money.

Well, then Barr is a complete waste of time (which is basically my assessment of him anyway... plus of space).


The LP has had 35 years to educate voters, and still there is rampant ignorance. The idea of pushing LP presidential candidates for the purpose of voter education has had its day. Now is the time, especially considering the growing revolution, that the LP actually try for the presidency. It's a long shot, and if I ran the show I wouldn't advocate it, but that's what the LP is doing and there's a shot of it working, so I support it.

Yup, LP has had 35 years and basically all it has succeeded in doing is to REINFORCE the caricature of itself as the "wackos" who want their "Pot, Porn & Prostitutes" -- which just does NOT go over well with mainstream America (not the people who vote anyway).

ANd it's worse than a long shot -- it's the same as it is EVERY 4 years for the LP -- they'll get a little bit of attention from the media as a "sideshow clown act" and that is about it.

And yet the Constitution Party is still ignored. In fact, of the two, the Libertarian party is larger by orders of magnitude. So while I agree that the CP has a better name, the LP is a better party and Bharr is a better candidate.

No more so than the LP really. Baldwin has access to media (Christian Radio & TV) that Barr could barely get when he was in the GOP, and definitely won't now that he's joined the PSA team.



As to size... LP is gonna lose a lot of people over Barr -- probably a lot more than the one's they might "temporarily" gain from the GOP... in the future, LP will look back on this year as the "Big Mistake." (And if Viguerie, Verney & Barr stick around... it will get even smaller next cycle, Vig & Vern have a history of destroying the 3rd parties they take over, so kiss it G'Bye).


Conversely, the CP is gaining more and more LOCAL officeholders every year (they tend to use the Presidential race as a way to get some publicity for their local people). In time, they will grow well beyond the LP in size (in actual national membership numbers, the CP is ALREADY larger than the LP). And this year, if they work the market properly, they should gain a lot of new PERMANENT members.
 
Constitution Party needs to remove some of their more Theocratic aspects and become a political organization instead of a religious organization that masks themselves. As long as they continue to attempt to define how others should live their life, I cannot in good conscience support "Dr." Baldwin.

(btw, only a complete assclown actually uses DR. when the title is honorary...just my two cents)


I believe he has a Doctorate degree. If not a PhD it is probably a DD. That would qualify him to use the title.
 
Well, then Barr is a complete waste of time (which is basically my assessment of him anyway... plus of space).

While I agree that Gary Johnson or Ron Paul would have been a better candidate, Barr has the necessary ingredients to break through in the way that Paul did in the primaries. I don't like him much either, but I'm a political person, and as such I'm willing to compromise in order to be effective.

Yup, LP has had 35 years and basically all it has succeeded in doing is to REINFORCE the caricature of itself as the "wackos" who want their "Pot, Porn & Prostitutes" -- which just does NOT go over well with mainstream America (not the people who vote anyway).

I disagree that the LP is exposed enough to mainstream America for them to have developed a caricature. That said, at least the LP has some exposure, ballot access, donor base, and organization structure. And now that the LP has competent leadership, they're working to reform that image.

ANd it's worse than a long shot -- it's the same as it is EVERY 4 years for the LP -- they'll get a little bit of attention from the media as a "sideshow clown act" and that is about it.

They got attention as a "sideshow act" because their candidates were radio hosts, authors, and other sideshows. Running a candidate with actual political qualifications starts the process of overcoming this. Barr gets media hits, unlike his predecessors, and he's actually challenged about his role in the race. Barr's exposure so far as been totally different than previous campaigns.

No more so than the LP really. Baldwin has access to media (Christian Radio & TV) that Barr could barely get when he was in the GOP, and definitely won't now that he's joined the PSA team.

Don't even try to make the case that Baldwin has better media exposure than Barr. Barr's done major, mainstream media left and right these past few weeks. Provided we support him in the way we supported Ron Paul (money bombs, media pushes, rallies, etc), his media exposure will balloon BECAUSE he already has this initial access.

As to size... LP is gonna lose a lot of people over Barr -- probably a lot more than the one's they might "temporarily" gain from the GOP... in the future, LP will look back on this year as the "Big Mistake." (And if Viguerie, Verney & Barr stick around... it will get even smaller next cycle, Vig & Vern have a history of destroying the 3rd parties they take over, so kiss it G'Bye).

We'll have to wait and see, but I've been active in the LP for a long time and my exposure to the organization leads me to think otherwise.

Conversely, the CP is gaining more and more LOCAL officeholders every year (they tend to use the Presidential race as a way to get some publicity for their local people). In time, they will grow well beyond the LP in size (in actual national membership numbers, the CP is ALREADY larger than the LP). And this year, if they work the market properly, they should gain a lot of new PERMANENT members.

This is wild speculation. The CP, whatever might happen to it several decades from now, is not, today, the best vehicle for a third party candidate. What matters is what is best today.
 
As many of us are saddened by Congressman Paul's recent actions to drop out of the race, suspend his campaign, or whatever other term(s) one wants to use to describe it, I would like to take this opportunity to invite those of you who have never heard of Dr. Chuck Baldwin, the Presidential nominee for the Constitution Party, to consider his campaign for the Presidency. Unlike Bob Barr (the Libertarian Presidential nominee), Dr. Baldwin actually endorsed Congressman Paul for President when he first began to run, and you'll find that Dr. Baldwin's position on the issues is pretty similar to Dr. Paul's. Dr. Baldwin is a personal friend of Congressman Paul's, and he is a firm lover of liberty and one whom I believe will carry on the "Revolution" in the same spirit that Dr. Paul has.

As far as grassroots support is concerned, Dr. Baldwin's "campaign for liberty" needs more support, particularly in the area of State-by-State ballot access. Visit this website, and you can find out the progress of this process as well as what you can do to help in your own State. No matter if you agree with Dr. Baldwin on all the issues or not, I encourage you to help support this candidate who truly believes in Constitutional government and follows the admonitions of our Founding Fathers, as Congressman Paul does.

I'm game.

I like to vote for people who actually represent my values. Unfortunately, I have no idea if Barr is that person since he has changed his mind so many times.
 
I will be voting for Baldwin if he's on the ballot if not Barr has my vote.

But considering that Barr will attract more voters by orders of magnitude, why not vote for him to buoy that effort even if Baldwin is on the ballot? I'd rather see a pro-liberty candidate get the largest number of votes rather than two pro-liberty candidates splitting the vote.
 
Back
Top