If Christ did not rise from the dead...

[TER]

But the Christians like to make it out like self sacrifice is so extraordinary, nobody but those touched by God would do it.

Not at all. Martyrdom comes from the Greek word μάρτυς which literally means 'witness'. Martyrs have been around as long as witnesses have been and are not found only in one religion.

When one gives his very life as a witness, their is no greater witness one can give.

I'm just pointing out that if the Apostles of Christ lied about the Resurrection, why would they give their very lives proclaiming it? For an easy life? Hardly! For a nice retirement? No.

My reasoning mind tells me that the most rational reason for them to live and die the way the did was because they knew they beheld the Risen Christ.

 

[TER]

Not necessarily. Its not entirely implausible that someone would die for something they knew to be false.

Implausible, no. Reasonable? Yes.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Not at all. Martyrdom comes from the Greek word μάρτυς which literally means 'witness'. Martyrs have been around as long as witnesses have been and are not found only in one religion.

When one gives his very life as a witness, their is no greater witness one can give.

I'm just pointing out that if the Apostles of Christ lied about the Resurrection, why would they give their very lives proclaiming it? For an easy life? Hardly! For a nice retirement? No.

My reasoning mind tells me that the most rational reason for them to live and die the way the did was because they knew they beheld the Risen Christ.

What makes you think they must have been rational? People do irrational things all the time.

For example:

John Mark Karr. Confessed to killing JonBenét Ramsey. He was willing to go to prision, or possible die, for something that was clearly false. Evidence shows he was nowhere near the JonBenét Ramsey case. The unidentified DNA wasnt his. The entire confession was a lie.

Does your reasoning tell you that the investigators are mistaken? And that John Mark Karr MUST have been the killer, because, why would he die for a lie? For an easy life? Hardly! For a nice retirement? No.

 

[TER]

What makes you think they must have been rational? People do irrational things all the time.

For example:

John Mark Karr. Confessed to killing JonBenét Ramsey. He was willing to go to prision, or possible die, for something that was clearly false. Evidence shows he was nowhere near the JonBenét Ramsey case. The unidentified DNA wasnt his. The entire confession was a lie.

Does your reasoning tell you that the investigators are mistaken? And that John Mark Karr MUST have been the killer, because, why would he die for a lie? For an easy life? Hardly! For a nice retirement? No.

You are using an anecdotal example of a mentally unstable individual. If you are stating that you believe that the apostles were mentally unstable and irrational for giving their lives proclaiming they beheld the Risen Christ, than I can only disagree with your assumption. Likewise, if I tell you there were godly men, you would disagree with mine.

Either way, you are choosing the more irrational explanation over the rational explanation of why they would give their lives proclaiming this, which is ironic given the fact that you usually put reason above all else.

 

[TER]

I will give you the last say (for now ) because I have to go to bed.

Good night and God bless!

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Either way, you are choosing the more irrational explanation over the rational explanation of why they would give their lives proclaiming this, which is ironic given the fact that you usually put reason above all else.

The more rational explanation is that none of this ever happened. I am simply arguing against your point that because they died, they must have believed it, so it must have been true.

Just because they died, it doesnt mean they really believed it.

 

[TurtleBurger]

The more rational explanation is that none of this ever happened. I am simply arguing against your point that because they died, they must have believed it, so it must have been true.

Just because they died, it doesnt mean they really believed it.

Dying for a lie is one thing. Dying by crucifixion where death can take days to arrive is another thing altogether. These men faced the worst torture the scientists of the day could invent and not one of the 12 ever recanted their story. That conviction makes their story a lot more plausible than the opinions of someone sitting behind their keyboard stuffing their fingers into their ears chanting "lalalalalala".

 

[Bman]

Dying for a lie is one thing. Dying by crucifixion where death can take days to arrive is another thing altogether. These men faced the worst torture the scientists of the day could invent and not one of the 12 ever recanted their story. That conviction makes their story a lot more plausible than the opinions of someone sitting behind their keyboard stuffing their fingers into their ears chanting "lalalalalala".

You talk as if all 12 were crucified. Even if some were it wasn't all of them. Earlier posted was how muslims died to get to their 72 virgins or whatever, does that make it real?

Believe what you will, but don't kid yourself that you have an answer that people just refuse to hear. It's absurd.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

They weren't crucified, but they were tortured and killed, except John...he was exiled. tones

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

These men faced the worst torture the scientists of the day could invent and not one of the 12 ever recanted their story. That conviction makes their story a lot more plausible than the opinions of someone sitting behind their keyboard stuffing their fingers into their ears chanting "lalalalalala".

John Fucking McCain

Tortured every single day for 5 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. They offered to release him in the first year and he refused. By his convictions, he fully believed that the US was doing the right thing in Vietnam. That does not make him correct.

I am not impressed by people being tough while tortured.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

You see, it would seem irrational for me (a bear of little brain) to believe His disciples would endured grueling tortures, imprisonments, and terribly painful deaths in order to perpetuate a lie that He rose from the dead.

In fact, my reasoning and rational mind would say that the ONLY reason His disciples would undergo such things is if they truly DID behold Christ risen from the dead.

They didn't witness him raising from the dead. Supposedly only two Roman Guards did. This is so stupid. People endure torture for all sorts of reasons. It's absurd to narrow down those reasons to the paranormal. Look around you today, there are countless cases of the same thing in this world, but do you claim they are doing it for divinity and that their claim actually happened? Give me a break this has got to be one of the worst arguement points for Christianity.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Still, all of this is even assuming these twelve guys existed in the first place.

 

[TER]

John Fucking McCain

Tortured every single day for 5 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. They offered to release him in the first year and he refused. By his convictions, he fully believed that the US was doing the right thing in Vietnam. That does not make him correct.

I am not impressed by people being tough while tortured.

As did the disciples fully belief they beheld the Risen Christ.

 

[TER]

They didn't witness him raising from the dead. Supposedly only two Roman Guards did. This is so stupid. People endure torture for all sorts of reasons. It's absurd to narrow down those reasons to the paranormal. Look around you today, there are countless cases of the same thing in this world, but do you claim they are doing it for divinity and that their claim actually happened? Give me a break this has got to be one of the worst arguement points for Christianity.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[constituent]

As did the disciples fully belief they beheld the Risen Christ.

exactly like that.

 

[TER]

Still, all of this is even assuming these twelve guys existed in the first place.

Unfortunately, we do not have what some might consider unequivicable evidence (DNA, video, etc) given the era in history it was in. That being said, I think most historians would agree these men existed given the unbroken written testimonies spanning back to the first century. Pretty good evidence they existed actually given the time/etc.

 

[TurtleBurger]

John Fucking McCain

Tortured every single day for 5 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. They offered to release him in the first year and he refused. By his convictions, he fully believed that the US was doing the right thing in Vietnam. That does not make him correct.

I am not impressed by people being tough while tortured.

John McCain was "tortured" by Vietnamese bimbos. He liked it.

 

[KCIndy]

I think most historians would agree these men existed given the unbroken written testimonies spanning back to the first century. Pretty good evidence they existed actually given the time/etc.

With all due respect, I'm afraid you're wrong on this point. There is no "unbroken" written testimony dating back to the first century.

Sadly, there are no known existing original manuscripts for any of the gospels. Nor, it seems, to we even have the first or second generation copies. The oldest known documents according to historians I've read seem to date back to around the second to third centuries, depending on the manuscripts in question.

Regardless of one's belief/disbelief, it's a real, tangible, historical loss that these documents are apparently forever gone.

 

[Dr.3D]

Still, all of this is even assuming these twelve guys existed in the first place.

How about something from a source other than the Bible?

Antiquities of the Jews 18:63 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ.
- Josephus the historian.

 

[TER]

With all due respect, I'm afraid you're wrong on this point. There is no "unbroken" written testimony dating back to the first century.

Sadly, there are no known existing original manuscripts for any of the gospels. Nor, it seems, to we even have the first or second generation copies. The oldest known documents according to historians I've read seem to date back to around the second to third centuries, depending on the manuscripts in question.

Regardless of one's belief/disbelief, it's a real, tangible, historical loss that these documents are apparently forever gone.

As you can imagine given the fact that the Church was severely persecuted in it's early years and the technology available at the time, many of the earliest writings have been lost and those which have remained are few. These are often letters addressed to the scattered churches or certain individuals (ex the epistles of St. Paul,etc). That being said, the earliest writings available outside of the Holy Scriptures include Sts. Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp (who were disciples of St. John) and they expilcitly refer to the apostles. The unbroken witness of the Christian faith and the lives of the apostles are not limited to writings but includes also the tradition of the Church, passed down from generation to generation. Also, the Church has relics of these apostles and have had them for 2000 years.

Does this require a degree of faith? Of course! Christ promised His Church would have faith as its foundation!