If Christ did not rise from the dead...

[TER]

Ever heard of a little place called Iraq? How about Viet Nam?

I dont think this is a good comparison. Soldiers trained for war in (presumed) defense of a country is not the same as a dozen village fishermen willingly being killed by proclaiming Christ has risen from the dead. They did not seek worldy glory or riches or fame, they humbly spread the message of the Risen Lord, of mercy, forgiveness, and love.

 

[TER]

What does it matter if they're wrong?

What does it matter if they weren't?

 

[TER]

What would constitute proof for you for something that occurred 2000 years ago?

Well, I can't speak for dannno, but whatcha got?

I have faith in the Holy Scriptures and in the teachings of the Church and in the examples of the lives of the saints.

 

[constituent]

What would constitute proof for you for something that occurred 2000 years ago?

Well, the romans it is told often took copious notes on, well, everything.

How about anything outside of scripture?

This is not to bash, only challenge you to look outside of the bible for physical proof of physical events.

I have faith in the Holy Scriptures and in the teachings of the Church and in the examples of the lives of the saints.

So to be clear, this is your answer to my question, "whatcha got" correct?

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Sounds to me like the OP just recently came across this argument and thinks hes struck gold.

 

[TER]

Well, the romans it is told often took copious notes on, well, everything.

How about anything outside of scripture?

This is not to bash, only challenge you to look outside of the bible for physical proof of physical events.

So to be clear, this is your answer to my question, "whatcha got" correct?

The early Church lived in secrecy, under intense persecution. They came together in people's houses, in the cloak of darkness, and in the catacombs, in the underbelly of the city. Just being found commiserating with the people of the 'Way' were grounds for torture and death. Yet still, even against such odds, the Church grew and spread at a rate than can only be described as a miracle given the era of history it was in.

We have the writings of the Gospels writers, the epistles of the Apostles, of the early Church Fathers (as early as the first century). Some of these writings come from fishermen, others from repentent former Jewish prosecutors, some from Roman officials and former pagan worshipers. The writings of the early fathers of the Church are outside of the Holy Scriptures, written by men scattered around the known world, in different languages, and all proclaiming that Christ is Risen. These are not in the Bible, but are witness to the Bible.

 

[TER]

Sounds to me like the OP just recently came across this argument and thinks hes struck gold.

Not at all. But I will admit that the OP is amongst the greatest reason I came to rationally belief in Christ many many years ago.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Not at all. But I will admit that the OP is amongst the greatest reason I came to rationally belief in Christ many many years ago.

Did 9/11 make you believe in Islam?

 

[TER]

Did 9/11 make you believe in Islam?

No. You are missing the point and likely have not read this thread

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

No. You are missing the point and likely have not read this thread

I have read this thread. I am familiar with this argument. You are asking, "Why would they allow themselves to be tortured and killed for a lie?"

The answer is, its nothing special. People do all sorts of things because of devotion to beliefs that are not true. Just because they really believed it enough to die for it, it doesnt mean its true.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

I dont know why Christians are so fascinated with people sacrificing themselves. Its really nothing that extraordinary. People sacrifice their lives for things all the time.

Hell, the secret service is trained to jump in front of bullets to protect the president. And they dont even believe hes a god.

 

[TER]

I have read this thread. I am familiar with this argument. You are asking, "Why would they allow themselves to be tortured and killed for a lie?"

The answer is, its nothing special. People do all sorts of things because of devotion to beliefs that are not true. Just because they really believed it enough to die for it, it doesnt mean its true.

So, as a person who puts reason and rationalism above all else, you think the more rational explanation is that they endured persecution, torture and death for a lie they knew rather than for a belief they held?

 

[TER]

I dont know why Christians are so fascinated with people sacrificing themselves. Its really nothing that extraordinary. People sacrifice their lives for things all the time.

Hell, the secret service is trained to jump in front of bullets to protect the president. And they dont even believe hes a god.

Christians are not fascinated with people sacrificing themselves. They are strengthened by them.

 

[YumYum]

why would the apostles endure torture and death in His Name?

Where in the Christian Bible does it say that the apostles were put to death? Stephen was stoned, but he wasn't an apostle.

 

[TER]

Where in the Christian Bible does it say that the apostles were put to death? Stephen was stoned, but he wasn't an apostle.

The Church does not end on page 515 of the King James Bible.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

So, as a person who puts reason and rationalism above all else, you think the more rational explanation is that they endured persecution, torture and death for a lie they knew rather than for a belief they held?

They may very well have believed it.

Or the whole thing may just be a myth.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Christians are not fascinated with people sacrificing themselves. They are strengthened by them.

But the Christians like to make it out like self sacrifice is so extraordinary, nobody but those touched by God would do it.

 

[TER]

They may very well have believed it.

Or the whole thing may just be a myth.

Well, reason would tell you they did believe it.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Well, reason would tell you they did believe it.

Not necessarily. Its not entirely implausible that someone would die for something they knew to be false.