I was smashed in a debate by the most liberal guy i know.

[YumYum]

how could someone graph industrialization? what is there to graph? If the x-axis is "years".... what the heck would the y-axis be??

The amount of trees cut down to print paper money? : )

 

[CableNewsJunkie]

This guy sounds like a lost cause.

About the only hope you have left is to show him a pre-1965 silver quarter, and ask him to look up its value on www.coinflation.com. Then ask him how many gallons of gas that quarter will buy him.

 

[mac_hine]

"HDTV, which stands for high definition television, first appeared in 1998. Manufacturers claim that high definition television provides an extraordinary viewing experience. Consumers, however, have to contend with the price. The question at the back of almost everyone's mind is, is it worth it? HDTV's prices range from $1000 to $5000. That's about 10 times the price of the regular television sets." http://www.amazines.com/Consumer/article_detail.cfm/1233647?articleid=1233647

HD Tv's have been around for more than a decade. When they first came out they were very expensive. The cost of building them was high and there wasn't all that much of a demand. Fast forward to today.... their price has dropped dramatically. The supply has risen. Sony and Panasonic aren't the only companies making them. New companies like Visio and Dynex produce decent TV's. The demand has also risen for this technology. Prices have fallen precipitously, in spite of inflation.

 

[mac_hine]

The Bretton Woods agreement took place in July of 1944. Coincidence?

 

[cubical]

"HDTV, which stands for high definition television, first appeared in 1998. Manufacturers claim that high definition television provides an extraordinary viewing experience. Consumers, however, have to contend with the price. The question at the back of almost everyone's mind is, is it worth it? HDTV's prices range from $1000 to $5000. That's about 10 times the price of the regular television sets." http://www.amazines.com/Consumer/article_detail.cfm/1233647?articleid=1233647

HD Tv's have been around for more than a decade. When they first came out they were very expensive. The cost of building them was high and there wasn't all that much of a demand. Fast forward to today.... their price has dropped dramatically. The supply has risen. Sony and Panasonic aren't the only companies making them. New companies like Visio and Dynex produce decent TV's. The demand has also risen for this technology. Prices have fallen precipitously, in spite of inflation.

This also refutes the deflationary spiral that economists say will occur if we were to allow deflation. People see prices dropping, but it does not put them off from buying.

 

[mac_hine]

Like your avatar says, "since when is falling prices a bad thing?"
~Peace

 

[Anti Federalist]

The Bretton Woods agreement took place in July of 1944. Coincidence?

First spike, creation of the FED.

Second spike, Bretton Woods.

Into the stratosphere when Nixon backed out of Bretton Woods and put us on a 100 percent fiat currency.

 

[mac_hine]

Yup. Thanks for finishing my thought.
~Peace

 

[axiomata]

No offense, but the fact that you conceded so easily tells me you're not quite ready for prime-time debating.

Learn this phrase: correlation does not equal causation.

Basic economics informs us that in fact, industrialization actually decreases average prices if the measuring stick of prices (dollars) remains constant.

 

[kah13176]

The two variables are unrelated. With increasing industrialization, prices will FALL. Prices rise in spite of increasing industrialization, not because of it.

 

[hugolp]

Learn this phrase: correlation does not equal causation.

+1

And I would add: Crazy guy is crazy. Industrialization drives prices up?!?! This has to be one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time.

 

[TastyWheat]

So according to this guys chart and argument....is he saying that industrialization did not occur before 1945? Because the increases do not substantially start taking off until 1945.

Ditto. The Industrial Revolution took place around the early 1800s so inflation must've steadily increased since then for his theory to make sense.

 

[Original_Intent]

A very simple counter argument would be: if industrialization raises the cost of goods THEN WHY WOULD ANYONE INDUSTRIALIZE?

The entire premise of his argument is ridiculous. Does he even know what economies of scale are? The fact is it is exactly the opposite of what he is saying and YOUR chart only shows part of the cost of inflation - the hidden part is the drop in price we would have otherwise seen.

 

[Tonewah]

Ditto. The Industrial Revolution took place around the early 1800s so inflation must've steadily increased since then for his theory to make sense.

This.

 

[Stary Hickory]

K why in the hell would countries bother to industrialize....to increase efficiency....to make more products faster......if it made it harder to live? Your Statist friend is not too bright. Industrialization is a downward force on prices. Just because he shows a graph and says it corresponds to something does not make it so. There is no logical connection.

 

[Bossobass]

There are distinctions in "price increase" vs "inflation".

For example, a house may cost more today than it did 30 years ago because:

1) It's bigger on average.
2) It has better windows.
3) It has dual HVAC vs a single system.
4) It has a better insulation package.
5) Etc.

Cost increase in cars vs 30 years ago:

1) Air bags vs none.
2) Anti-lock brakes vs disc brakes.
3) DVD players with 10 speaker sound system vs am/fm radio.
4) Leather seating vs vinyl.
5) Etc.

Price increases are a consequence of inflation. Price changes can also be from many other factors, as shown above.

In the 90s, Greenspan used these examples (among other arguments) to justify "a new method for calculating inflation".

"Once the system had been shifted fully to geometric weighting, the net effect was to reduce reported CPI on an annual, or year-over-year basis, by 2.7% from what it would have been based on the traditional weighting methodology. The results have been dramatic. The compounding effect since the early-1990s has reduced annual cost of living adjustments in social security by more than a third."

Aside from the changed weighting, the average person also tends to sense higher inflation than is reported by the BLS, because of hedonics, as in hedonism. Hedonics adjusts the prices of goods for the increased pleasure the consumer derives from them. That new washing machine you bought did not cost you 20% more than it would have cost you last year, because you got an offsetting 20% increase in the pleasure you derive from pushing its new electronic control buttons instead of turning that old noisy dial, according to the BLS.

... the BLS uses something called hedonics, from the root word hedonism. Essentially, the adjust the price of an item based on the "pleasure" or increased value you get. Thus, they don't price automobiles based on the sticker price, but on what you get for your money. If the manufacturers load in more items like new electronics or anti-locking brakes that were not standard the year before that means you are getting more value for your dollar, so therefore the price in terms of inflation goes down even though you may be paying the same or even more to get out of the car show room.

Greenspan used this general truth in conjunction with gains in productivity and the famous "steak vs hamburger" analogy to obscure the obvious end goals, which were to understate the COLA adjustments for SS (so they could rob the funds surplus), overstate GDP and hide real inflation (so that they could keep interest rates artificially low and create bubble after bubble).

Unfortunately, these sorts of 'limited hangout' ploys have worked wonderfully for the Fed, as seen in the debater's reply to the OP's point.

Bosso

 

[nathanmn]

Bossobass is the only one that gave a half decent reply in this thread. Prices and cost of living are not the same thing. Cost of living has gone up with industrialization because there are MORE things to buy and they are HIGHER quality. Don't you think a huge house with electricity, central air, indoor plumbing, etc costs more than a cabin with a wood stove?

 

[Bryan]

and blamed the cost of living going up because of government spending and inflation of monetary. ...

so yeah.... which is it?

Inflation is, by the old original definition, price increases due to increases in the money supply. It is *one* possible reason for the cost of living going up-- but there can be many others ones too.... a drought is another possible reason. Industrialization could have effects too... so this doesn't have to be a one or the other issue.

IMO, you'd do better to frame your position to state that inflation of the monetary unit increases the cost of living. That doesn't exude other factors.

 

[Bryan]

Industrialization means more productivity.. more productivity means more of everything.. and more of everything means lower prices.

More productivity does not necessary mean more of everything- some items can be naturally limited, and when they are there can not be more production. As industrialization picks up there will be more demand for their limited items, and with no increased supply, the price will go up.

 

[FrankRep]

i cant find it anywhere. but is it true that industrialization rises prices? because everything im looking into says yes.

Industrialization should make prices cheaper because things are made faster with less cost.