I was smashed in a debate by the most liberal guy i know.

[TheAnswerTo1984is1776]

I showed this guy this graph

and blamed the cost of living going up because of government spending and inflation of monetary.

but he retaliated by saying the cost of living goes up from industrialization which he showed me a graph and it pretty much looked identical lol.

and if this is true, why would wealth make prices rise? doesn't this contradict free market theory, I thought the more wealth you had the lower the cost of living???
because in a free market you would pretty much not be basing wealth off of money but wealth off of actual capitol.

so yeah.... which is it?

 

[specsaregood]

Perhaps it would help if you showed us the graph he showed you. And did the industrialization in his graph coincide with monetary inflation at the time?

 

[low preference guy]

no. if you have the same amount of money in circulation and there are more goods, prices will have to fall. they can only rise if more money is printed.

suppose you trade fruits with 10 of your friends. all of you have 10 bucks. if all of a sudden food production is industrialized and you have 10000000 more apples, then price of each apple isn't going to increase, right?

under a gold standard, however, it's not so obvious, because more gold could enter the country, which is equivalent to printing money. note that "not obvious" is not the same as false.

 

[TheAnswerTo1984is1776]

i cant find it anywhere. but is it true that industrialization rises prices? because everything im looking into says yes.

 

[specsaregood]

i cant find it anywhere. but is it true that industrialization rises prices? because everything im looking into says yes.

Why would it?

 

[Maximus]

It's supply and demand, the more of a product the lower the price will go.

 

[ClayTrainor]

It's supply and demand, the more of a product the lower the price will go.

Unless, of course, the demand grows with the supply.

 

[TheAnswerTo1984is1776]

ok this is pretty much the conversation

Me: the cost of living goes up because of inflation which has everything to do with government.

statist: that is not the only reason costs of living goes up. The cost of living increased before the federal reserve or any type of central bank even existed.

Me: :showed him graph above:

statist: Through that time as well, you are looking at a non-industrialized country. With industrialization comes cost of living rises naturally. If America and remained a non-industrial country the graph make sense according to your argument.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

ok this is pretty much the conversation

Me: the cost of living goes up because of inflation which has everything to do with government.

statist: that is not the only reason costs of living goes up. The cost of living increased before the federal reserve or any type of central bank even existed.

Me: :showed him graph above:

statist: Through that time as well, you are looking at a non-industrialized country. With industrialization comes cost of living rises naturally. If America and remained a non-industrial country the graph make sense according to your argument.

As far as I know industrialization should make prices come down.

Industrialization means more productivity.. more productivity means more of everything.. and more of everything means lower prices.

More money floating around results in lower worth of the money so prices go up.

 

[hazek]

I showed this guy this graph *image*

and blamed the cost of living going up because of government spending and inflation of monetary.

but he retaliated by saying the cost of living goes up from industrialization which he showed me a graph and it pretty much looked identical lol.

and if this is true, why would wealth make prices rise? doesn't this contradict free market theory, I thought the more wealth you had the lower the cost of living???
because in a free market you would pretty much not be basing wealth off of money but wealth off of actual capitol.

so yeah.... which is it?

Maybe I'm stupid but please remind me again what does the expansion of industrialization have to do with prices? Was he suggesting that because of higher industrialization the prices had to go higher?

If that's case why then are for example computers, cell phones, lasik eye surgery getting cheaper?

 

[cbc58]

It's supply and demand, the more of a product the lower the price will go.

that's the way it's supposed to work ...

 

[hazek]

ok this is pretty much the conversation

Me: the cost of living goes up because of inflation which has everything to do with government.

statist: that is not the only reason costs of living goes up. The cost of living increased before the federal reserve or any type of central bank even existed.

Me: :showed him graph above:

statist: Through that time as well, you are looking at a non-industrialized country. With industrialization comes cost of living rises naturally. If America and remained a non-industrial country the graph make sense according to your argument.

You should have asked him how his theory holds up when priced in gold

Here, have him explain this:

 

[cubical]

Well was the graph he showed you a graph measured in $s? If yes, then the only reason it looks similar is because more money is required to be transfered to do the same amount work/business. Production=wealth, lower prices=wealth.

 

[japes]

...he showed me a graph and it pretty much looked identical lol...

We have to see his graph so we can understand what it's based on. It's not enough to simply say, "His graph shows that industrialization causes prices to increase."

 

[efiniti]

and if this is true, why would wealth make prices rise?

Because its not true.

 

[JasonC]

So according to this guys chart and argument....is he saying that industrialization did not occur before 1945? Because the increases do not substantially start taking off until 1945.

 

[Anti Federalist]

ok this is pretty much the conversation

Me: the cost of living goes up because of inflation which has everything to do with government.

statist: that is not the only reason costs of living goes up. The cost of living increased before the federal reserve or any type of central bank even existed.

Me: :showed him graph above:

statist: Through that time as well, you are looking at a non-industrialized country. With industrialization comes cost of living rises naturally. If America and remained a non-industrial country the graph make sense according to your argument.

Your chart starts going into the stratosphere right around 1970-1975.

Nixon un-pegged the dollar from gold in 1971.

He "opened" China to set the path for our de-industrialization in 1972. (yes, the mess we are in has been in the works that long)

If anything de-industrializing causes rising consumer prices, the only thing that masks that is the fact that imports to make up the difference are dirt cheap, for a number of reasons, slave/prison labor being one of them.

That, and going to an all fiat, non gold backed, unconstitutional currency.

If America and remained a non-industrial country the graph make sense according to your argument.

Is your statist friend arguing that America was not an industrialized nation in 1970?

 

[hazek]

Basically the guy has no clue about economics or history. You should invite him on this forum, I bet you we demolish his arguments within 2min of his post.

 

[Tal]

Dont worry dude, he didnt provide any sort of counter argument, he just showed you a different chart showing the same thing IE that money lost its value (and that is a consequence of inflation and it causes costs of living to increase in dollar terms), what he basicly did was show you a replica of the chart you had put up and said it meant something else.

Just so you know industrialization doesnt make prices increase, industrialization means (as I understand it) the accumulation of capital goods IE newer and better factory equipment and this improved equipment allows manufacturers to produce goods at a lower price per unit IE you should experience mild deflation during an industrialization period, if you dont its because the government is printing money IE creating inflation.

You should have just replied to him that industrialization doesnt increase the cost of living, it lowers it, im pretty sure that would have left him flummoxed.

 

[bighairycaveman]

how could someone graph industrialization? what is there to graph? If the x-axis is "years".... what the heck would the y-axis be??