I don't understand the love on here for Kucinich

The U.S. is certainly NOT moving towards a free market system. In fact they are moving far away from a free market system and never had one.

LOL I am well aware of this. The US is one of the more free-market systems in the world. It's not the most free market but closer than 90% of countries out there. My words were meant to be an example of priorities.
 
Democratic Socialism can work and has for many years in Europe, Australia and New Zealand. While I totally disagree with the basis for socialism and the thought of collectivism in general, I would much rather have a society where I have way more personal freedom and more socialized government (healthcare, retirement, higher minimum wage etc) than have a total free market system with no personal liberty which is where the US is moving. Ireland, New Zealand, Hong Kong (if considered a free country), and Australia are considered more "free" countries. In some indexes the US is down as low as the 40s in freedom from the government! It is quite an eye opener when some countries that you travel to seem more "free."

Socialism is not compatible with personal freedom because it imposes economic rights or a right to goods. Under any kind of socalism, freedoms must be taken from some and given to others.

Take socialized healthcare for instance:

"An alleged “right” to health care, like all other economic rights, imposes positive obligations on the parts of others to fulfill that right, and thereby necessitates the violation of other rights like the right to property. A “right” that is in conflict with other rights represents a contradiction that is resolved not by some crude moral balancing act, but by recognizing that economic rights themselves do not exist."
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--1297-Right_To_Health_Care.aspx

"Let's begin by defining our terms. A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something you possess free and clear, something you can exercise without asking anyone else's permission. Because it is an entitlement, not a privilege or favor, we do not owe anyone else any gratitude for their recognition of our rights.

When we speak of rights, we invoke a concept that is fundamental to our political system. Our country was founded on the principle that individuals possess the "inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Along with the right to property, which the Founding Fathers also regarded as fundamental, these rights are known as liberty rights, because they protect the right to act freely. The wording of the Declaration of Independence is quite precise in this regard. It attributes to us the right to the pursuit of happiness, not to happiness per se. Society can't guarantee us happiness; that's our own responsibility. All it can guarantee is the freedom to pursue it. In the same way, the right to life is the right to act freely for one's self-preservation. It is not a right to be immune from death by natural causes, even an untimely death. And the right to property is the right to act freely in the effort to acquire wealth, the right to buy and sell and keep the fruits of one's labor. It is not a right to expect to be given wealth.

The purpose of liberty rights is to protect individual autonomy. They leave individuals responsible for their own lives, for meeting their own needs. But they provide us with the social conditions we need to carry out that responsibility: the freedom to act on the basis of our own judgment, in pursuit of our own ends; and the right to use and dispose of the material resources we have acquired by our efforts. These rights reflect the assumption that individuals are ends in themselves, who may not be used against their will for social purposes.

Let us consider what liberty rights mean in regard to medical care. If we implemented them fully, patients would be free to choose the type of care they want, and the particular health care providers they want to see, in accordance with their needs and resources. They would be free to choose whether they want health insurance, and if so, in what amounts. Doctors and other providers would be free to offer their services on whatever terms they choose. Prices would be governed not by government fiat, but by competition in a market. Since this is an imaginary state of affairs, no one can predict what mix of private practitioners, HMOs, and other sorts of health plans would emerge. But market forces would tend to ensure that patients have more choices than they do now, that they would act more responsibly than many do at present, and that they would pay actuarially fair prices for health insurance—prices that reflect the actual risks associated with their age, physical condition, and lifestyle. No one would be able to shift his costs onto someone else. In a truly free market, I might add, there would be no tax preference for obtaining health insurance through employers, so most people would probably buy health insurance the way they buy life insurance, auto insurance, or homeowners insurance—directly from insurance companies. They would not have to fear that losing their job, or changing the job, would mean losing their coverage.

So that is what liberty rights—the classical rights to life, liberty, and property—would mean in practice. The so-called "right" to medical care is quite different. It is not merely the right to act—i.e., to seek medical care, and engage in exchanges with providers, free from third party interference. It is a right to a good: actual care, regardless of whether one can pay for it. The alleged right to medical care is one instance of a broader category known as welfare rights. Welfare rights in general are rights to goods: for example, a right to food, shelter, education, a job, etc. This is one basic way in which they are quite different from liberty rights, which are rights to freedom of action, but don't guarantee that one will succeed in obtaining any particular good one may be seeking.

Another difference has to do with the obligations imposed on other people. Every right imposes some obligation on others. Liberty rights impose negative obligations: the obligation not to interfere with one's liberty. Such rights are secured by laws that prohibit murder, theft, rape, fraud, and other crimes. But welfare rights impose on others the positive obligation to provide the goods in question.

Health care does not grow on trees or fall from the sky. The assertion of a right to medical care does not guarantee that there is going to be any health care to distribute. The partisans of these rights demand, with air of moral righteousness, that everyone have access to this good. But a demand does not create anything. Health care has to be produced by someone, and paid for by someone."
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/showcontent.aspx?ct=14&h=53
 
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This is why kucinich is a fucking hoser.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll501.xml

That was a vote for the bill that made it illegal to "annoy" someone on the internet.

Kucinich voted for it, paul and 3 others nayed it.

Kucinich is a nanny state sack of shit, paul isnt, end of story.
 
I totally agree that the basis of socialism takes liberty away. How much varies greatly from country to country and type of socialism being employed. A free market system is very capable of having almost no liberty and in our case of a mixed economy, personal rights are being taken away at a rapid pace to a point where we have less rights than a lot of countries that are more socialist than us. To say that free market equals liberty and socialism equals equality is way too simplistic. There are more factors to freedom than health care, speech, gun rights, etc.

Participatory economics and mutualism are two of the socialist "movements" that promote liberty over equality. While both are very simplistic in theory and have yet to really be expanded, they are different thoughts on the are when compared to the Lenin and China models of socialism. Socialism is a broad generic term that often has a different meaning than what it is applied to.
 
Why does the majority of people love Dennis? There's people saying he should be VP, he's their second choice, etc.

Sure he has the same war stance as Paul, but he's TOTAL opposite as far as everything else. He's a gun grabber, big government, socialist liberal.

He'd be one of my LAST choices as far as who to run the country.

It's because in the near-term, a Paul administration would be indistinguishable from a Kucinich administration. Both want to pull out of Iraq immediately, and curtail the attack on our civil liberties.

In the middle and long term, though, things would be very different. Kucinich would work to repeal the 2nd amendment and enact a government takeover of several industries, not the least of which is health care.

Overall, I'm with you - I'd really rather not have Kucinich as President. He'd be OK for 8 weeks though. :)
 
Kucinich is a Constitutionalist. He carries the Constitution around with him.

And the idea that he is a gun grabber is ridiculous. He might not be the NRA's top choice for pres, but at an old debate, all the Dems were asked to raise their hand if they owned any guns. Kucinich was one of the few who did.
 
I remember using www.kucinich.us when I was researching the candidates back in early 2007, now it seems he got a new domain and doesn't have the gun-control issue on his main website anymore.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070519133023/kucinich.us/issues/guns.php

I co-signed a bill, H.R. 2038, to renew and strengthen the federal assault weapons ban. I also attended a recent Save Our Sons and Daughters (SOSAD) event.

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=62819

In the aftermath of Monday’s deadly shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia, Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) is proposing a comprehensive, three-point plan to deal with the violence plaguing America, including a ban on handguns.

Already this Congress, Kucinich has introduced HR 808 and HR 676—two bills that directly relate to the events of Blacksburg. HR 808, legislation to establish a Department of Peace and Nonviolence, addresses the issue of domestic violence, gang violence, and violence in the schools, which is reflected in the current homicide rates. HR 808 has 62 cosponsors.

“The bill provides hope for a transformation through education of our children in principles of nonviolence and support for existing community groups and professionals whose dedication would be empowered by a national commitment to peace and nonviolence,” Kucinich said.

BTW, what better way to help guarantee no peace with a government Department of Peace.
 
Kucinich is a Constitutionalist. He carries the Constitution around with him.

And the idea that he is a gun grabber is ridiculous. He might not be the NRA's top choice for pres, but at an old debate, all the Dems were asked to raise their hand if they owned any guns. Kucinich was one of the few who did.

What he heck have you been smoking? :confused: Just becuase he owns a gun doesn't mean he in any way is pro gun rights, not when he attempts to ban handguns.
 
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