(Huge) delegate vote anomaly in Alabama verified

You're just trolling this thread anyway - telling people 'good job this looks suspicious'

It's not "good job". It's obvious: candidates got more votes for their delegates than they themselves recieved. I think that's obviously unexpected, given the rules, and worth looking into. (note: "looking into" does not mean plotting the same data 100 different ways)

while intentionally insulting the very same people over and over in the same breath.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted, but these threads have been rife with absurd, obviously fallacious arguments asserted as "mathematial proof", and I do find it embarassing.

You didn't even understand the ballot, and have been asking super basic questions anyone that spent even 30 seconds doing their own research would know the answer to... answers that are required to even understand what's being discussed in this thread, let alone have an intelligent opinion on it.

So answer: Why did some candidates get more votes for delegates than they got themselves?

As for 2008, I love that you pick Huckabee, the one candidate we've identified in 2008 as having the same anomaly in a couple counties. Love it! You're paying just enough attention to be divisive.

Yes, another candidate that appeals to rural folks. And oh my God!!!! He gets more votes in smaller, more rural precincts!!! What a shocker!! It must mean a massive multi state conspiracy to commit fraud according to an absurd and unnecessarily complicated algorithm!!! Give me a flipping break.
 
Look, I'm truly sorry that you never made it past the fourth grade.

Thanks for the ad-hominem. I have advanced degrees in science and mathematics.

But please understand that the math we are using here is taught in basic statistics classes everywhere.

Math isn't the problem with the "vote flipping" nonsense. Basic logic is the problem. Data is sorted on electorally significant bases, and then people get shocked when they see a correlation with voting results.

Extreme arrogance is another problem ...

If you have questions, by all means ask them. But making careless remarks is counterproductive and does nothing to further your education.

Exhibit A ...
 
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I just took 5 minutes to call the Alabama GOP, and ask them why some candidates got more votes for their delegates than they themselves recieved (one wonders why nobody had done this already).

They said that the company charged with scanning and tabulating the results had an error, where votes for delegates counted regardless of a voter's candidate preference. Apparently re-scanning the data would cost a couple million dollars, and nobody's willing to pay it.

If you believe them, this certainly explains the results -- a significant number of people who voted for other candidates went ahead and filled in bubbles for all the delegate races.
 
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So answer: Why did some candidates get more votes for delegates than they got themselves?

Not everyone here is a "flipper." I think the flipper arguments are deeply flawed, and at the same time I don't think anyone has proven that it's *not* fraud either. What we're doing (some of us, anyway) *is* trying to figure out why some candidates got more votes for delegates than they got themselves. We know that the rule was not enforced in 2012. (But perhaps it was enforced in 2008, where other than two discrepancies that could be corrected by adding one vote each to the totals, the rule was followed in the partial data set that we have.) We've looked at some patterns of "voter fatigue." Apparently the discrepancies look very different in the more urban counties than they do in some of the more rural counties. And we know quite a few other things about the situation as well.

Even so, let me emphasize again that I am skeptical by nature and I don't think that a compelling case has been made either for fraud, or for non-fraud. But I do think that in the midst of a lot of noise, some real progress is being made toward figuring out why some candidates got more votes for delegates than they should have. Where it all leads, I don't know yet.

All of which is simply to provide the context for this: You're contributing nothing, you're either an idiot or doing a very good imitation of one, you give skepticism a bad name, and please go away.
 
I just took 5 minutes to call the Alabama GOP, and ask them why some candidates got more votes for their delegates than they themselves recieved (one wonders why nobody had done this already).

They said that the company charged with scanning and tabulating the results had an error, where votes for delegates counted regardless of a voter's candidate preference. Apparently re-scanning the data would cost a couple million dollars, and nobody's willing to pay it.

If you believe them, this certainly explains the results -- a significant number of people who voted for other candidates went ahead and filled in bubbles for all the delegate races.

Yes we already knew that, and we don't think it explains why three of the candidates had small overvotes in their delegate races, but Ron Paul's delegate races got on average about 300% of what would be expected. But we're probably wrong. Consider it solved. Thanks for stopping by.
 
Could fraud have occurred? Absolutely.

I'm just sick of people going off half cocked and claiming "mathematical proof" when they have nothing of the sort.
 
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Yes we already knew that, and we don't think it explains why three of the candidates had small overvotes in their delegate races, but Ron Paul's delegate races got on average about 300% of what would be expected. But we're probably wrong. Consider it solved. Thanks for stopping by.

Well, if a number of people went ahead and voted for delegates, for all campaigns, what would be more significant is the total numbers, not the percentages.

Newt received roughly 30K more votes for delegates than he himself received as a candidate.
Paul received roughly 55K more.

Say there are 60K people who went straight across and voted for both Newt and Paul delegates (gotta have a complete ballot!). That'd mean 30K of Newt's 180K voters didn't bother to vote for delegates, and 5K of Paul's 30K voters didn't bother to vote for delegates.

That sounds plausible to me.
 
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Well, if a number of people went ahead and voted for delegates, for all campaigns, what would be more significant is the total numbers, not the percentages.

Newt received roughly 30K more votes for delegates than he himself received as a candidate.
Paul received roughly 55K more.

Say there are 60K people who went straight across and voted for both Newt and Paul delegates (gotta have a complete ballot!). That'd mean 30K of Newt's 180K voters didn't bother to vote for delegates, and 5K of Paul's voters didn't bother to vote for delegates.

That sounds plausible to me.

Boy are WE embarrassed! Fifty-three pages and nobody has come up with anything like that! Thanks for clearing it up. Bye.
 
Boy are WE embarrassed! Fifty-three pages and nobody has come up with anything like that! Thanks for clearing it up. Bye.

The "vote flipping" had 200 pages, and even you admit it's fallacious on a basic, logical level.

How is this explanation not plausible?

I think people are spending entirely too much time plotting things, and not enough time thinking through the issue.
 
To date, all of the “vote flipping” theory is based on the comparison between low and high vote total vote percentages. Whether you are a believer or not, many of us have devoted hundreds of hours to proving and disproving vote fraud.

The graphs below make NO camparison between low and high vote total precincts. The analysis is TOTALLY AND INDEPENDENTLY based on the differential between the vote reconstruction graph using reported vote totals AND the delegate reconstruction graph using the average of ALL reported delegates in each precinct for each candidate's delegate "score". Although all of the graphs below utilize this averaging method for computing delegates, I have constructed all of the below graphs using delegate 1, delegate 2. delegate 3, and variations of weighting. Every single method I used demonstrated the same anomaly that is shown below;The rate at which Romney received new precinct votes increases by 4.2% (of the overall votes cast) at vote count 300k, or precinct votes cast = 850. Also from this precinct and greater which includes more than 250 of the largest Alabama precincts, Ron Paul receives less than 100 extra votes total in precincts with more candidate votes than delegate votes. The largest 100 precincts, Paul NEVER has a single precinct where he has a single vote more than delegate votes! In those same precincts, Santorum and Romney consistently receive hundreds of candidate votes versus delegate votes in each precinct.

It's beyond me how to begin to explain this ANY other way besides vote theft. It appears to corroborate the notion that Romney is receiving votes that are not intended for him in larger precincts. Note that graph totals will vary depending on the delegate score methods used, but what DOES NOT change is that ]At 300k total votes with precinct delegate totals arranged in ascending vote total order, the rate at which Romney receives new votes increases by 4.2% of the Total Vote.


ZoominginonStolenVotesinTheAlabama.jpg

Note that at 300k total votes, Romney's new vote receiving percentage instantaneously increases by 4.2 percent in relation to the TOTAL vote, which gains him 12k additional votes.


Getting this back on track from the attempted derail,
if you look at figure 2 and don't see something worth massive investigation, you don't need to be here. You're either not understanding the charts, or you're on someone else's team.

And we would never have discovered this if we weren't making lots of charts, trying to sort out what was happening.

Chalking this up to 'oh, romney just does better once 300k votes are hit' is just trolling.
 
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They said that the company charged with scanning and tabulating the results had an error, where votes for delegates counted regardless of a voter's candidate preference. Apparently re-scanning the data would cost a couple million dollars, and nobody's willing to pay it.

There is NO WAY this re-scanning project would cost "a couple million dollars".


First: Who's problem is it? "the company charged with scanning and tabulating the results had an error"

They screwed up, they need to fix the problem and re-scan FREE OF CHARGE

Second: Have you done the math. Have you ever done the math?

In Alabama, in 2012: Ballots Cast: 828,761

Model 650 High Speed Scanner $ 71,440.00
http://www.sos.idaho.gov/elect/clerk/M650 Procedures/M650 OM v. 2.1_12.15.2005.pdf

M650 Central Ballot Tabulator
The ES&S Model 650 Central Ballot Counter is an easy-to-use, high-speed central paper ballot counter and vote tabulator that supports a full range of jurisdiction sizes and ballot complexities. The Model 650 with its advanced OMR scanning technology securely processes a variety of ballot lengths — 14", 17", and 19" — all at a speed of over 300 ballots per minute.

LET ME DO THE MATH FOR YOU:

46.04 Man-Hours

Technically 6 clerks with 6 rented machines can do that in ONE DAY.

ES&S should provide the machines (Alabama probably already has them) and ES&S should reimburse the county for the 46 hours of labor.

I estimate the labor cost to be around $5,000 without the machines

If anybody is from Alabama reading this thread, could you PLEASE call back your county and have a little word with them?
 
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if you look at figure 2 and don't see something worth massive investigation, you don't need to be here. You're either not understanding the charts, or you're on someone else's team.

Ouch. I look at figure 2 and scratch my head because I'm not sure what to expect from graphing the cumulative difference between a candidates vote total and the average of his delegate race totals, plotted against the cumulative average of total votes cast at a precinct with precincts sorted by the total votes cast.

But I'm not one to give up THAT easily. So I first tried to make sure I could replicate the result, to see if I at least understood the calculation being performed even if I didn't have a prior expectation for what that calculation should yield. I initially had it wrong, too, because I hadn't noticed that the y-axis is also cumulative. My result doesn't have a sharp "knee" though. Is that just the effect of having straight lines superimposed over it? I calculated the difference at each precinct, then graphed the cumulative sum of that. Anyway this is close:

wstLK.png


I didn't have any prior expectation for what this graph would look like so it's hard to be surprised. But I can try to dig further and understand what's going on.

I also did a scatter plot, not cumulative on either axis:

4lsIc.png


The vertical blue line separates the precincts that come before the 300,000 "crime happens here" point from the ones that come after. Now I'm not clear on what flipping theory says would be done to the votes at each precinct, but it's a small number of points (with big vote counts) that are doing a lot of the work here.

I started wondering about those large precincts that were doing the work here. Was there perhaps some geographical clustering, like there was in Va Beach City? I wondered how the votes on the right-hand side of a cumulative graph were distributed around the state, compared to the votes on the left-hand side. A calculation that I posted earlier showed that the top few counties account for a significantly larger proportion of the 100 largest precincts than they do overall. Not surprising really. But I wanted to look closer.

I grabbed the 2011 census data for Alabama counties. They range in size from 9k to 659k. I sorted the precincts by vote count, and with a moving window of 100 precincts I plotted the percentage within that window that came from the 20 (out of 68) most populous counties:

7oHVn.png


Can I get a "just wow"? No? Maybe if I drew some straight lines to emphasize a slope change at around the 300,000 point where it flattens out?

What does this tell us? Over on the left-hand side of the many cumulative graphs we've seen, the precincts are predominantly from the less-populous regions of Alabama. That gradually changes, and right around the "crime" point of 300,000 the geographic composition has changed to being around 80% from the most-populous regions of Alabama, and continues that way to the end of the graph. After you cross that 300k point nearly half the counties in Alabama are not represented at all, and just 5 counties account for 58% of the remaining precincts even though those 5 account for only 24% of all precincts. (I also did the same graph with county population density. Very similar graph.)

People keep saying that the demographic argument is dead. With this graph in mind, tell me why that is. Why would you expect there NOT to be demographic differences from a sample weighted heavily toward the least-populous areas of the state (the left hand part of the graph) and another sample weighted heavily from the most-populous areas of the state? It's true that even a large county can have some tiny precincts, right next to very large precincts. But where those tiny precincts from populous counties are showing up on the left side of the graph, they're far outnumbered by tiny precincts from sparsely populated areas.

And considering that the curve of the Mitt minus dels graph slopes more sharply upward (when suitably smoothed on both the x and y axes) over the same region where the third graph flattens out because from there on out we're drawing >80% of the precincts from the most populous counties, can anyone at least entertain the possibility that there could be a demographic difference at work here? That if your samples are 80% from the most populous counties you might just be looking at some significant demographic differences compared to samples drawn mostly from less populous counties?
 
Ouch. I look at figure 2 and scratch my head because I'm not sure what to expect from graphing the cumulative difference between a candidates vote total and the average of his delegate race totals, plotted against the cumulative average of total votes cast at a precinct with precincts sorted by the total votes cast...


Can I get a "just wow"? No? Maybe if I drew some straight lines to emphasize a slope change at around the 300,000 point where it flattens out?

What does this tell us? Over on the left-hand side of the many cumulative graphs we've seen, the precincts are predominantly from the less-populous regions of Alabama. That gradually changes, and right around the "crime" point of 300,000 the geographic composition has changed to being around 80% from the most-populous regions of Alabama, and continues that way to the end of the graph. After you cross that 300k point nearly half the counties in Alabama are not represented at all, and just 5 counties account for 58% of the remaining precincts even though those 5 account for only 24% of all precincts. (I also did the same graph with county population density. Very similar graph.)

People keep saying that the demographic argument is dead. With this graph in mind, tell me why that is. Why would you expect there NOT to be demographic differences from a sample weighted heavily toward the least-populous areas of the state (the left hand part of the graph) and another sample weighted heavily from the most-populous areas of the state? It's true that even a large county can have some tiny precincts, right next to very large precincts. But where those tiny precincts from populous counties are showing up on the left side of the graph, they're far outnumbered by tiny precincts from sparsely populated areas.

And considering that the curve of the Mitt minus dels graph slopes more sharply upward (when suitably smoothed on both the x and y axes) over the same region where the third graph flattens out because from there on out we're drawing >80% of the precincts from the most populous counties, can anyone at least entertain the possibility that there could be a demographic difference at work here? That if your samples are 80% from the most populous counties you might just be looking at some significant demographic differences compared to samples drawn mostly from less populous counties?

Hey DSW If anyone can appreciate your Replication diligence, it's me. You need to graph (vote minus delegate) cumulative versus precinct cumulative vote total in ascending vote total order. YOU DON'T AVERAGE ANYTHING. It's true that for my original example, I used the average of all delegates, but I also told you it doesn't matter which delegate you use. You should have 1,864 REAL data points. Sorry to disappoint you, but there is simply no smoke and mirrors in my work. I figure that you may use the word "average" against my work's credibility so this is for you- the same "figure#2" using 12 different Romney delegate calculations.

Slide1.jpg

Slide2.jpg

How to duplicate: In your spreadsheet, create a column headed "Romney votes minus delegates." Each value in this column will be the difference of votes minus delegates for Romney. Create another column headed "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative". In this column, you will add each individual value to the previous total. Then graph the "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative" versus "cumulative vote count by increasing precinct vote totals."
 
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I am tempted to annotate each of those 14 charts with my trademark "Crime Occurs Here!" and a red arrow pointing at the hinge point.
 
The Y Axis value is obtained by adding the "Romney votes minus delegates" precinct data point to the sum of the preious calculation for a total of 1,864 REAL data points. Sorry to disappoint you, but there are simply no smoke and mirrors in my work. I figure that you may use the word "average" against my work's credibility so this is for you- the same "figure#2" using 12 different Romney delegate calculations.

I used the word "average" because you said you took the "average of ALL reported delegates in each precinct". I calculated the difference using that as the delegate score, then as I said "I calculated the difference at each precinct, then graphed the cumulative sum of that." And all using the same 1,864 REAL data points.

I'm not saying the graph isn't real. In my first graph I'm just trying to replicate it.
 
I used the word "average" because you said you took the "average of ALL reported delegates in each precinct". I calculated the difference using that as the delegate score, then as I said "I calculated the difference at each precinct, then graphed the cumulative sum of that." And all using the same 1,864 REAL data points.

I'm not saying the graph isn't real. In my first graph I'm just trying to replicate it.

Just in case you and/or I am missing something here, maybe this will help. In your spreadsheet, create a column headed "Romney votes minus delegates." Each value in this column will be the difference of votes minus delegates for Romney in each horizontal precinct row. Create another column headed "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative". In this column, you will add each individual value to the previous total. Then graph the "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative" versus "cumulative vote count by increasing precinct vote totals."
 
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How to duplicate: In your spreadsheet, create a column headed "Romney votes minus delegates." Each value in this column will be the difference of votes minus delegates for Romney in each horizontal precinct row. Create another column headed "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative". In this column, you will add each individual value to the previous total. Then graph the "Romney votes minus delegates cumulative" versus "cumulative vote count by increasing precinct vote totals."

I'm doing it with python and gnuplot, but otherwise that's exactly what I was trying to do. Here's the graph again with some straight lines added, and the axes scaled to match, and an exerpt of yours for comparison. I could have made a mistake, but if so it's not intentional. The real point, if I've successfully replicated the phenomenon, is what followed in the rest of the post trying to look at what might explain it.

EDIT: more specifically, the rest of that post looks at the way that around the time you get to the "knee" in the graph, you've also gotten to a point at which the remaining data points are 80% from the 20 highest population counties, with just five of those largest counties having twice as much weight from there to the right hand side of the graph than they do overall. What I don't see is why people think the demographics of the precincts represented on the left hand side of the graph should be expected to be close enough to those on the right-hand side of the graph that you can make the inferences that are made. That would only be expected if the counties with lower population density should be demographically equivalent to the counties with the highest population density, but why would anyone expect that?
duFyv.png
eJLJv.jpg
 
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OK- Your red graph line is distorting the sharpness of the elbow but looks like you've done it. Your "straight" line is way off. If there's any way to distort the natural sharpness of the elbow any more than you have, I'd be shocked.

I need to make sure you understand the ramifications here. Up until the Alabama analysis, you could argue that demographical variances from small to large precincts MIGHT could be the cause of this sudden change in Romney's vote receiving percentage. You could argue this because ALL of the analysis compared percentages from small to large vote- total precincts. In other words, IF you REALLY believe that ANY demographical conditions are the cause of a sudden change in percentage of 2%, you yell "demographics" and the researchers would be required to run demographical analysis from now on and NEVER satisfy the cries of the trolls.

Now, however, the "demographics" cry is irrelevant. Now, you face a much steeper challenge. The graph below does NOT compare small and large precinct percentages. The graph compares the delegates curve, X- Axis, to the reported votes curve, Y- Axis. The ever- widening gap between the green line and the X-Axis IS the cumulative difference of Reported Votes minus Reported Delegates. Here is what you have to explain:

There are more than 18 Romney Delegate positions on the Alabama 2012 Presidential Primary ballot on which voters voted. ALL of them, when compared to the reported vote total graph, clearly show that Romney's new vote receiving% jumps 2-5% at 300k total votes. I hope you understand. This analysis does NOT compare small and large precinct vote totals.

There is NO rational way to explain WHY the delegate vote does not closely follow the slope of the graph below. You can invent all kinds of ridiculous "what ifs", but I don't believe there is but one REAL explanation: Electronic Vote Manipulation


eJLJv.jpg


I have been in a brain storming session today with 2 (former) skeptics who are totally stumped at this.
 
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