How would you respond to this?

[Catatonic]

So this guy is saying we need more outsourcing. He somehow thinks we can turn America into a nation of white collar workers.

I pointed out to him that if we have no domestic production, that will kill our middle class. The only reason this system of exporting production has worked for so long is because of the advantage we hold through the bretton woods system, which will be gone once the dollar is devalued.

He agreed that a strong middle class is important in maintaining dollar value. I pointed out that if this system he's talking about destroys the middle class, obviously its not going to work.

This is the response:

I agree it devalues the currency but in a very roundabout way you cant directly correlate it. Thats like saying bond prices directly influence the price of my computer. Ya in a completely roundabout way everything is connected. I think we dont need to expand the middle class but rather shrink the lower class. Deficits have never in our economy effected anything (we are the only economy that seems to not even care) Yes WE care but the majority of the population doesn't

I don't really know how to respond. I think he's destroyed my IQ. I just want to go outside now and roll around in the grass.

Help!

 

[Conza88]

Ummm, the rest of the population didn't care DURING the BOOM... they'll care DURING the BUST.

Meh. To be honest, I'd need the start to end discussion - to see his weak points, address his flawed premises.

From that, I'd simply go for the moral high ground.

Inflation is hidden taxation. Taxation is theft.

Classes? What are you a Marxist? Jeezus! The only true classes are RULERS vs. RULED.

 

[Catatonic]

Ummm, the rest of the population didn't care DURING the BOOM... they'll care DURING the BUST.

Meh. To be honest, I'd need the start to end discussion - to see his weak points, address his flawed premises.

From that, I'd simply go for the moral high ground.

Inflation is hidden taxation. Taxation is theft.

Classes? What are you a Marxist? Jeezus! The only true classes are RULERS vs. RULED.

The thing that really throws me off is his statement that the deficit doesn't affect our economy or the dollar's value.

I just don't know where to start with that. Oh well Sometimes a facepalm just isn't enough.

 

[acptulsa]

Decrease the size of the lower class without expanding the middle class? How? Does he intend to implement Hitler's Final Solution? Or will he be merciful and export us to the nations that got our jobs?

 

[angelatc]

I think we dont need to expand the middle class but rather shrink the lower class.

This really makes no sense. I can't even type about it.

So, we eliminate the lower class, and then only have 2 classes? What then?

The whole problem with moving to a white collar / service economy is simple. Those jobs follow manufacturing. There's no good reason for any other country to settle for making stuff that we design.

 

[Catatonic]

Here's how I'm finishing this guy off. Can't take his insanity any more and no one else is participating, so there's no point.

When i said not expand the middle class but shrink the lower class i meant that we should also expand the upper class..hmm novel idea. Deficits DONT MEAN ANYTHING TO THE US. Investors have never cared in the US what the deficit is.
your comparing me to hitler? horrible. No facist but rather free market capitalist, too bad people dont like what happens to the weak in in a free market economy, so i make concessions, like the Chrysler senior bond owners, lol sorry had to do that, they got screwed badddd.

im not a facist or communist or whatever you wanna call me.

Why is there a class war btw?

You're describing economic fascism almost by definition.

No, you don't seem to be a social fascist or a political fascist. If you really are a free market guy you wouldn't be worknig so hard trying to defend the Fed. But that makes sense because the kind of system you're describing could never exist in a true free market.

note - I should have pointed out this all started from me posting Ron Paul's audit the fed video. This guy claims that not only is the Fed audited, its best to keep the Fed private. He also claims to believe in free markets and work in the financial sector.

Scary, very scary.

 

[Knighted]

The whole problem with moving to a white collar / service economy is simple. Those jobs follow manufacturing. There's no good reason for any other country to settle for making stuff that we design.

I don't see why the US economy must remain dependent on manufacturing in order to maintain stable/rising incomes. Higher paying jobs exist outside of manufacturing. The argument that comes up often here is that the US can't survive as a mostly service-based economy, but there are plenty of other countries around the world that are doing just that. Actually, there seems to be a trend going on that the more prosperous a country becomes, the more it shifts towards being a service based economy. I don't see any reason to fight that. Two examples of such countries are Hong Kong with an economy made up of 91% service sector (and often lauded as the most free market based economy in the world) and Luxembourg, which has a GDP per capita almost twice that of the US. If you look at a comparison chart of the world's countries and GDP composition, you'll find all of the third world countries have the smallest service sectors and largest industrial sectors while the industrial nations have the largest service sectors.

 

[Pete]

The whole problem with moving to a white collar / service economy is simple. Those jobs follow manufacturing. There's no good reason for any other country to settle for making stuff that we design.

Absolutely. Who attends the better engineering schools in the US? Not Americans, certainly. It's only a matter of time until China, India, etc., become where the best schools are, because that's where the experience will be. The best engineers and teachers have plenty of real-world experience gained on shop floors.

I used to make a good living working as a management accountant for now-extinct manufacturing companies, before the 1980s Rust Bowl. One of these was in a small town in PA, and it was easy to see that when we were doing well, the whole town prospered. And that was just from the wages and salaries paid our 200+ employees, including about a dozen or so degreed individuals. Beyond that, we used about 10,000 tons of steel per year, spent a few million dollars on tooling, bought all kinds of chemicals, lubricants, corrugated boxes, pallets, conveyors, cranes, lift trucks, production machinery, and machine tools. We spent big bucks on insurance, telecommunications, computers, attorneys, benefits consultants, and landscapers. We paid shitloads more into federal and state unemployment and worker compensation funds than we ever used. We were owned by a larger corporation that generated lots of business for banks, Wall Street traders, public accountants, more insurance companies and lawyers, etc., etc. Now that our business and that of our major customers has moved offshore, ALL that economic activity is gone along with the blue collar, white collar, and elite executive jobs that were supported.

Well, I shouldn't say that the activity is gone, entirely, because it has been dispersed to Japan, Mexico, and China. It's just not here in the US.

The libs love to talk about 'sustainability'. Something that cannot be sustained is trade deficits of $800 billion or so. I'm pretty sure that eventually the deficits will be cured, but only after our standard of living falls to where things can be made as cheaply here as in Bengladesh or wherever. I cannot see more US citizens becoming Masters of the Universe, providing white-collar support for goods made in our economic colonies. Where the hell is the skills base for that going to come from?

 

[Ozwest]

China is far outstripping the U.S. in the educating of scientists, engineers, Dr's, technicians etc.

The time is fast approaching that they will no longer require external assistance, and will be largely self-sufficient.

 

[LiveFree79]

You think of America like the difference between a grocery store and a farmer. Middle class and lower class people are the farmers. White collar people are grocery stores.

You friend is basically saying we can all be grocery stores. Well it's the farmer that actually dictates who can be a grocery store and who can't. How many farmers we have depends on how many of us can be a grocery store.

The other funny thing this "fascist" guy seems to forget the more grocery store owners we have in society the less free we are. The more farmers we have the more freedom we have. Service economy in general means less freedom, less self reliance and more dependence on the government. The more removed we are from something the less free we are. I use food as a perfect example. Americans used to be very self reliant when it came to their food supply. I.e. lots of local farms, hell even personal gardens. Now most of us rely on SOMEONE else for our food. The government loves it!!!!!!

 

[Knighted]

The other funny thing this "fascist" guy seems to forget the more grocery store owners we have in society the less free we are. The more farmers we have the more freedom we have. Service economy in general means less freedom, less self reliance and more dependence on the government. The more removed we are from something the less free we are

I disagree. It's not our government that we have become more dependent on by exporting agricultural/industrial jobs. It's the economies of many different foreign countries that we become more dependent on. And this should be no surprise. Our country's economy began becoming dependent on the economies of other countries the moment our first trading vessel sailed across the atlantic hundreds of years ago. It's simply globalization as a result of trade. I see that as a positive thing. It has reduced the sovereignty of countries some, but it has encouraged a sense of cooperation between them that I believe is largely responsible for us not seeing a WWIII in our lifetimes yet.

I see no reason to fear having to import our food from Mexico or our clothes from China. The only way the US economy will remain dominant is by evolving and not restricting ourselves to being an agricultural/industrial economy. I see clinging to manufacturing jobs today as not much different than clinging to agricultural jobs was in the mid 1800's to early 1900's. If we had rejected industrialized jobs in order to maintain the tried-and-true agricultural jobs back then, our economy would only be a fraction of what it is today.

 

[Ozwest]

I disagree. It's not our government that we have become more dependent on by exporting agricultural/industrial jobs. It's the economies of many different foreign countries that we become more dependent on. And this should be no surprise. Our country's economy began becoming dependent on the economies of other countries the moment our first trading vessel sailed across the atlantic hundreds of years ago. It's simply globalization as a result of trade. I see that as a positive thing. It has reduced the sovereignty of countries some, but it has encouraged a sense of cooperation between them that I believe is largely responsible for us not seeing a WWIII in our lifetimes yet.

I see no reason to fear having to import our food from Mexico or our clothes from China. The only way the US economy will remain dominant is by evolving and not restricting ourselves to being an agricultural/industrial economy. I see clinging to manufacturing jobs today as not much different than clinging to agricultural jobs was in the mid 1800's to early 1900's. If we had rejected industrialized jobs in order to maintain the tried-and-true agricultural jobs back then, our economy would only be a fraction of what it is today.

I agree largely with your statements. But you down-grade yourself by ignoring the fact that America still has a pair of bollocks!

Get the government out of the way. Americans have all they need. The most creative and talented people in the world.

Japan has no natural resources. No cheap labor. They had people willing to work. They were successful.

Why the fuck can't America rebuild itself on the backs of its incredible citizens?

Stop bailing out corporations and banks. Piss them off, and take control of your own destiny, and show the rest of the world.

 

[ForrestLayne]

I guess I am missing a piece of the puzzle. Manufacturing imparts more value to a raw material than anyhting else. Service seems to me to only use value created from something else and move it around. IE. The service could not exist on its own, it has to be funded from something tangible.

I cut trees into firewood - manufacturing

My boy stacks wood for a customer after delivery - service

But how could my boy stack (service) if there is no manufacture to start with?

I think our economy needs to be based on both manufacturing and service, but real wealth is in what creates the value, not what moves the value around afterwards.

That's why we left agriculture. We sold 1 ton of cotton to Britain and for the same money could only buy 2 shirts - manufacturing added the value and made the cotton useful. Now we don't want to manufacture the shirts, we want to sell information concerning who is buying what shirt - service.
No shirts = no information = no service job.

How can we grow value of GNP without making things to add value?