How will we make a living?

Free markets are good, but when it comes at the expense of the nation and community you are located in it isn't. Patriotism use to be the norm in America. Now it is seen as some relic of the past that only applies to fighting those mythical terrorists that allegedly brought the sole super power of the world to its knees on 9/11. Henry Ford understood his responsibility to his nation and employees and made sure they were paid a wage that would enable them to buy the product they were making and help the economy of the area. He didn't seek to hire near slave labor just so he could make more profit. He was very successful with this model. Today very few American companies give a crap about their employees, community, or nation. Most don't even call themselves Americans anymore, they prefer to be called international companies now, even though they started here. They are only seeking the most profits in the short term as possible while hardly ever caring about the long term. This short sighted greed is destroying the USA faster than even the Federal Reserve.

Ah henry ford. What a great ethical guy. The problem was people were sitting on the assembly line doing nothing in protest, THEN he raised wages. He's a corperate douche bag like all of them. If can't be ethical and successful. It's not possible in a free market system. Free Markets encourage and perpetuate corruption and greed.
 
I'm with tremendous. There is no such thing as "too much production" - unless it is fueled by easy credit and leads to distorted markets.

In a true free market system without government interference (which we haven't had for a century or so), with robots doing all the work, goods would be so plentiful that anyone could access them. You don't begrudge giving your friend a piece of paper or a post-it note, do you? If there was truly that much production that humans weren't needed, a vehicle might be that trivial. There will always be services people can render each other for payment, and if not, voluntary charity will supply for needs. Like Ron Paul said, Americans are generous - if all their wealth isn't being stolen by force.

Production and efficiency are good things.
 
Just wait until the next installment of Zeitgeist since these topics are so important that they coincidentally only come up after each one is released.
 
Ah henry ford. What a great ethical guy. The problem was people were sitting on the assembly line doing nothing in protest, THEN he raised wages.

Actually he raised wages as part of a profit sharing system to reduce turnover and it worked very well in 1914. The sit down didn't occur until much later in 1941 when the UAW was trying to start a union that Ford was so opposed to that he nearly broke the company up to avoid it. Only his wife's insistence that she would leave him if he broke it up persuaded him to accept the union.
 
it'll be great. we'll all make our living serving one-another drinks.

I'll take a Crown Lager thanks... (Local beer here)

It''ll be largely appropriate... since we'll be living like them. [*Drum Drum Snare*] :D

------------------------------

So will robots be ethical responsible though? What if they are powered by alcohol? And work behind a bar? What will the other robots do about it? Will there be a king robot who decides everything and how the other robots will work? Will there be a CENTRAL computer system, that controls everything? What if there is a virus? What if all the machines break down entirely, what will we do?

Take your time teen08 / zeitgeist insan-assylum / anarcho-commune-ists....
 
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Robots are creating something for very little every fucking day. Where have you been living? The car your dear mommy drives was made by machines.

In your world, you would like think for every job that dissapears, 3 more appears. If you think this is so then you're living a dream. Maybe you should scrub tremen's toilet also. :)

Fuck off, you don't know a thing about my world. Jobs are not lost when a machine is made, someone has to repair and maintain them. Though you would probably go smashing them like a Luddite sent on a mission from Marx himself. Get with reality, your Utopia cannot exist.

Put down the tin foil. Go study economics.
 
one tech can maintain hundreds of computers, or dozens of machines. A dozen machines can do the work of hundreds of people.

100 people could run a factory that once employed 2000 people. thats 1,900 jobless people, even if they had the applicable skills they'd still have no work.

i suspect we have hundreds of years to work out a solution to this problem though.

the freedom movement has to stop promoting those Zeitgeist movies. The collectivist message is too seductive for some people.
 
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Anyone notice as products are more and more mass produced that the demand for handmade and unique goods has gone up? Machines in the foreseeable future will not replace human labor, because they lack ingenuity, they lack creativity. There will always been a demand for items that are not mass produced.

If you actually care about jobs and machines replacing people- maybe more people should put their money where their mouth is- that's the point of a free market, you speak with your wallet. Stop buying the mass produced crap from Walmart.
 
First of all, teen4paul, isn't the goal of the Venus Project to have machines replace all labor in some utopian future? So I don't understand how you cuold support the Venus Project and at the same time say machines replacing labor is a bad thing.

Second, machines DO NOT cause or contribute to unemployment. They never have, and never will, cause a net decrease in available jobs. They also never have and never will cause a net decrease in the common man's standard of living. Claiming otherwise is nothing more then unfounded alarmism.

Think about this: If machines really do replace labor, population has been increasing exponentially since the industrial revolution, and technology has been advancing on a quadratic scale - WHY DO WE STILL HAVE 95% EMPLOYMENT 300 YEARS AFTER THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION?

Henry Hazlitt can say it better then me, so please read the following:

Economics in One Lesson
by Henry Hazlitt
The Lesson Applied
The Curse of Machinery

AMONG THE MOST viable of all economic delusions is the belief that machines on net balance create unemployment. Destroyed a thousand times, it has risen a thousand times out of its own ashes as hardy and vigorous as ever. Whenever there is long-continued mass unemployment, machines get the blame anew. This fallacy is still the basis of many labor union practices. The public tolerates these practices because it either believes at bottom that the unions are right, or is too confused to see just why they are wrong.

The belief that machines cause unemployment, when held with any logical consistency, leads to preposterous conclusions. Not only must we be causing unemployment with every technological improvement we make today, but primitive man must have started causing it with the first efforts he made to save himself from needless toil and sweat.

To go no further back, let us turn to Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations, published in 1776. The first chapter of this remarkable book is called “Of the Division of Labor,” and on the second page of this first chapter the author tells us that a workman unacquainted with the use of machinery employed in pin-making “could scarce make one pin a day, and certainly could not make twenty,” but with the use of this machinery he can make 4,800 pins a day. So already, alas, in Adam Smith’s time, machinery had thrown from 240 to 4,800 pin-makers out of work for every one it kept. In the pin-making industry there was already, if machines merely throw men out of jobs, 99.98 percent unemployment. Could things be blacker?

Things could be blacker, for the Industrial Revolution was just in its infancy. Let us look at some of the incidents and aspects of that revolution. Let us see, for example, what happened in the stocking industry. New stocking frames as they were introduced were destroyed by the handicraft workmen (over 1000 in a single riot), houses were burned, the inventors were threatened and obliged to flee for their lives, and order was not finally restored until the military had been called out and the leading rioters had been either transported or hanged.

Now it is important to bear in mind that insofar as the rioters were thinking of their own immediate or even longer futures their opposition to the machine was rational. For William Felkin, in his History of the Machine-Wrought Hosiery Manufactures (1867), tells us (though the statement seems implausible) that the larger part of the 50,000 English stocking knitters and their families did not fully emerge from the hunger and misery entailed by the introduction of the machine for the next forty years. But insofar as the rioters believed, as most of them undoubtedly did, that the machine was permanently displacing men, they were mistaken, for before the end of the nineteenth century the stocking industry was employing at least a hundred men for every man it employed at the beginning of the century.

Arkwright invented his cotton-spinning machinery in 1760. At that time it was estimated that there were in England 5,200 spinners using spinning wheels, and 2,700 weavers—in all, 7,900 persons engaged in the production of cotton textiles. The introduction of Arkwright’s invention was opposed on the ground that it threatened the livelihood of the workers, and the opposition had to be put down by force. Yet in 1787—twenty-seven years after the invention appeared—a parliamentary inquiry showed that the number of persons actually engaged in the spinning and weaving of cotton had risen from 7,900 to 320,000, an increase of 4,400 percent.

If the reader will consult such a book as Recent Economic Changes, by David A. Wells, published in 1889, he will find passages that, except for the dates and absolute amounts involved, might have been written by our technophobes of today. Let me quote a few:

During the ten years from 1870 to 1880, inclusive, the British mercantile marine increased its movement, in the matter of foreign entries and clearances alone, to the extent of 22,000,000 tons... yet the number of men who were employed in effecting this great movement had decreased in 1880, as compared with 1870, to the extent of about three thousand (2,990 exactly). What did it? The introduction of steam-hoisting machines and grain elevators upon the wharves and docks, the employment of steam power, etc....

In 1873 Bessemer steel in England, where its price had not been enhanced by protective duties, commanded $80 per ton; in 1886 it was profitably manufactured and sold in the same country for less than $20 per ton. Within the same time the annual production capacity of a Bessemer converter has been increased fourfold, with no increase but rather a diminution of the involved labor.

The power capacity already being exerted by the steam engines of the world in existence and working in the year 1887 has been estimated by the Bureau of Statistics at Berlin as equivalent to that of 200,000,000 horses, representing approximately 1,000,000,000 men; or at least three times the working population of the earth....

One would think that this last figure would have caused Mr. Wells to pause, and wonder why there was any employment left in the world of 1889 at all; but he merely concluded, with restrained pessimism, that “under such circumstances industrial overproduction . . . may become chronic.”

In the depression of 1932, the game of blaming unemployment on the machines started all over again. Within a few months the doctrines of a group calling themselves the Technocrats had spread through the country like a forest fire. I shall not weary the reader with a recital of the fantastic figures put forward by this group or with corrections to show what the real facts were. It is enough to say that the Technocrats returned to the error in all its native purity that machines permanently displace men—except that, in their ignorance, they presented this error as a new and revolutionary discovery of their own. It was simply one more illustration of Santayana’s aphorism that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

The Technocrats were finally laughed out of existence; but their doctrine, which preceded them, lingers on. It is reflected in hundreds of make-work rules and featherbed practices by labor unions; and these rules and practices are tolerated and even approved because of the confusion on this point in the public mind.

Testifying on behalf of the United States Department of Justice before the Temporary National Economic Committee (better known as the TNEC) in March 1941, Corwin Edwards cited innumerable examples of such practices. The electrical union in New York City was charged with refusal to install electrical equipment made outside of New York State unless the equipment was disassembled and reassembled at the job site. In Houston, Texas, master plumbers and the plumbing union agreed that piping prefabricated for installation would be installed by the union only if the thread were cut off one end of the pipe and new thread were cut at the job site. Various locals of the painters’ union imposed restrictions on the use of sprayguns, restrictions in many cases designed merely to make work by requiring the slower process of applying paint with a brush. A local of the teamsters’ union required that every truck entering the New York metropolitan area have a local driver in addition to the driver already employed. In various cities the electrical union required that if any temporary light or power was to be used on a construction job there must be a full-time maintenance electrician, who should not be permitted to do any electrical construction work. This rule, according to Mr. Edwards, “often involves the hiring of a man who spends his day reading or playing solitaire and does nothing except throw a switch at the beginning and end of the day.”

One could go on to cite such make-work practices in many other fields. In the railroad industry, the unions insist that firemen be employed on types of locomotives that do not need them. In the theaters unions insist on the use of scene shifters even in plays in which no scenery is used. The musicians’ union required so-called stand-in musicians or even whole orchestras to be employed in many cases where only phonograph records were needed.

By 1961 there was no sign that the fallacy had died. Not only union leaders but government officials talked solemnly of “automation” as a major cause of unemployment. Automation was discussed as if it were something entirely new in the world. It was in fact merely a new name for continued technological advance and further progress in labor-saving equipment.
 
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But the opposition to labor-saving machinery, even today, is not confined to economic illiterates. As late as 1970, a book appeared by a writer so highly regarded that he has since received the Nobel Prize in economics. His book opposed the introduction of laborsaving machines in the underdeveloped countries on the ground that they “decrease the demand for labor”!* The logical conclusion from this would be that the way to maximize jobs is to make all labor as inefficient and unproductive as possible. It implies that the English Luddite rioters, who in the early nineteenth century destroyed stocking frames, steam-power looms, and shearing machines, were after all doing the right thing.

One might pile up mountains of figures to show how wrong were the technophobes of the past. But it would do no good unless we understood clearly why they were wrong. For statistics and history are useless in economics unless accompanied by a basic deductive understanding of the facts—which means in this case an understanding of why the past consequences of the introduction of machinery and other labor-saving devices had to occur. Otherwise the technophobes will assert (as they do in fact assert when you point out to them that the prophecies of their predecessorsturned out to be absurd): “That may have been all very well in the past but today conditions are fundamentally different; and now we simply cannot afford to develop any more labor-saving machines.” Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, indeed, in a syndicated newspaper column of September19, 1945, wrote: “We have reached a point today where labor-saving devices are good only when they do not throw the worker out of his job.”

If it were indeed true that the introduction of labor-saving machinery is a cause of constantly mounting unemployment and misery, the logical conclusions to be drawn would be revolutionary, not only in the technical field but for our whole concept of civilization. Not only should we have to regard all further technical progress as a calamity; we should have to regard all past technical progress with equal horror. Every day each of us in his own activity is engaged in trying to reduce the effort it requires to accomplish a given result. Each of us is trying to save his own labor, to economize the means required to achieve his ends. Every employer, small as well as large, seeks constantly to gain his results more economically and efficiently— that is, by saving labor. Every intelligent workman tries to cut down the effort necessary to accomplish his assigned job. The most ambitious of us try tirelessly to increase the results we can achieve in a given number of hours. The technophobes, if they were logical and consistent, would have to dismiss all this progress and ingenuity as not only useless but vicious. Why should freight be carried from Chicago to New York by railroad when we could employ enormously more men, for example, to carry it all on their backs?

Theories as false as this are never held with logical consistency, but they do great harm because they are held at all. Let us, therefore, try to see exactly what happens when technical improvements and labor-saving machinery are introduced. The details will vary in each instance, depending upon the particular conditions that prevail in a given industry or period. But we shall assume an example that involves the main possibilities.

Suppose a clothing manufacturer learns of a machine that will make men’s and women s overcoats for half as much labor as previously. He installs the machines and drops half his labor force.

This looks at first glance like a clear loss of employment. But the machine itself required labor to make it; so here, as one offset, are jobs that would not otherwise have existed. The manufacturer, however, would have adopted the machine only if it had either made better suits for half as much labor, or had made the same kind of suits at a smaller cost. If we assume the latter, we cannot assume that the amount of labor to make the machines was as great in terms of payrolls as the amount of labor that the clothing manufacturer hopes to save in the long run by adopting the machine; otherwise there would have been no economy, and he would not have adopted it.

So there is still a net loss of employment to be accounted for. But we should at least keep in mind the real possibility that even the first effect of the introduction of labor-saving machinery may be to increase employment on net balance; because it is usually only in the long run that the clothing manufacturer expects to save money by adopting the machine: it may take several years for the machine to “pay for itself.”

After the machine has produced economies sufficient to offset its cost, the clothing manufacturer has more profits than before. (We shall assume that he merely sells his coats for the same price as his competitors and makes no effort to undersell them.) At this point, it may seem, labor has suffered a net loss of employment, while it is only the manufacturer, the capitalist, who has gained. But it is precisely out of these extra profits that the subsequent social gains must come. The manufacturer must use these extra profits in at least one of three ways, and possibly he will use part of them in all three: (1) he will use the extra profits to expand his operations by buying more machines to make more coats; or (2) he will invest the extra profits in some other industry; or (3) he will spend the extra profits on increasing his own consumption. Whichever of these three courses he takes, he will increase employment.

In other words, the manufacturer, as a result of his economies, has profits that he did not have before. Every dollar of the amount he has saved in direct wages to former coat makers, he now has to pay out in indirect wages to the makers of the new machine, or to the workers in another capital-using industry, or to the makers of a new house or car for himself or for jewelry and furs for his wife. In any case (unless he is a pointless hoarder) he gives indirectly as many jobs as he ceased to give directly.

But the matter does not and cannot rest at this stage. If this enterprising manufacturer effects great economies as compared with his competitors, either he will begin to expand his operations at their expense, or they will start buying the machines too. Again more work will be given to the makers of the machines. But competition and production will then also begin to force down the price of overcoats. There will no longer be as great profits for those who adopt the new machines. The rate of profit of the manufacturers using the new machine will begin to drop, while the manufacturers who have still not adopted the machine may now make no profit at all. The savings, in other words, will begin to be passed along to the buyers of overcoats—to the consumers.

But as overcoats are now cheaper, more people will buy them. This means that, though it takes fewer people to make the same number of overcoats as before, more overcoats are now being made than before. If the demand for overcoats is what economists call “elastic”—that is, if a fall in the price of overcoats causes a larger total amount of money to be spent on overcoats than previously— then more people may be employed even in making overcoats than before the new labor-saving machine was introduced. We have already seen how this actually happened historically with stockings and other textiles.

But the new employment does not depend on the elasticity of demand for the particular product involved. Suppose that, though the price of overcoats was almost cut in half—from a former price, say, of $150 to a new price of $100—not a single additional coat was sold. The result would be that while consumers were as well provided with new overcoats as before, each buyer would now have $50 left over that he would not have had left over before. He will therefore spend this $50 for something else, and so provide increased employment in other lines.

In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, automation, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work.
 
Not all inventions and discoveries, of course, are “labor-saving” machines. Some of them, like precision instruments, like nylon, lucite, plywood and plastics of all kinds, simply improve the quality of products. Others, like the telephone or the airplane, perform operations that direct human labor could not perform at all. Still others bring into existence objects and services, such as X-ray machines, radios, TV sets, air-conditioners and computers, that would otherwise not even exist. But in the foregoing illustration we have taken precisely the kind of machine that has been the special object of modern technophobia.

It is possible, of course, to push too far the argument that machines do not on net balance throw men out of work. It is sometimes argued, for example, that machines create more jobs than would otherwise have existed. Under certain conditions this may be true. They can certainly create enormously more jobs in particular trades. The eighteenth century figures for the textile industries are a case in point. Their modern counterparts are certainly no less striking. In 1910, 140,000 persons were employed in the United States in the newly created automobile industry. In 1920, as the product was improved and its cost reduced, the industry employed 250,000 In 1930, as this product improvement and cost reduction continued, employment in the industry was 380,000. In 1973 it had risen to 941,000. By 1973, 514,000 people were employed in making aircraft and aircraft parts, and 393,000 were engaged in making electronic components. So it has been in one newly created trade after another, as the invention was improved and the cost reduced.2

There is also an absolute sense in which machines may be said to have enormously increased the number of jobs. The population of the world today is four times as great as in the middle of the eighteenth century, before the Industrial Revolution had got well under way. Machines may be said to have given birth to this increased population; for without the machines, the world would not have been able to support it. Three out of every four of us, therefore, may be said to owe not only our jobs but our very lives to machines.

Yet it is a misconception to think of the function or result of machines as primarily one of creating jobs. The real result of the machine is to increase production, to raise the standard of living, to increase economic welfare. It is no trick to employ everybody, even (or especially) in the most primitive economy. Full employment—very full employment; long, weary, backbreaking employment—is characteristic of precisely the nations that are most retarded industrially. Where full employment already exists, new machines, inventions and discoveries cannot—until there has been time for an increase in population — bring more employment. They are likely to bring more unemployment (but this time I am speaking of voluntaiy and not involuntary unemployment) because people can now afford to work fewer hours, while children and the overaged no longer need to work.

What machines do, to repeat, is to bring an increase in production and an increase in the standard of living. They may do this in either of two ways. They do it by making goods cheaper for consumers (as in our illustration of the overcoats), or they do it by increasing wages because they increase the productivity of the workers. In other words, they either increase money wages or, by reducing prices, they increase the goods and services that the same money wages will buy. Sometimes they do both. What actually happens will depend in large part upon the monetary policy pursued in a country. But in any case, machines, inventions and discoveries increase real wages.


http://jim.com/econ/contents.html
 
If can't be ethical and successful. It's not possible in a free market system. Free Markets encourage and perpetuate corruption and greed.

Show me a link to an analysis of a real, existing free market system, childish one. I dare you.

Ain't no such thing. There have to be rules for any game, and as soon as one rule gets written, someone starts bribing the umpires. We're trying to install honest, non-corruptable umpires. You want the crooked umpires to have more regulations they can use to tilt the playing field in the direction that favors their benefactors. Your method is a proven loser.

Ours is proven to work provided you can find enough ethical people do perform the umpire chores.

Difficult but proven winner versus proven loser. We don't like your alternative. Deal with it.
 
Even if we get all our manufacturing jobs back from overseas, they are or will go to machines in a matter of time. How will the free market function if there's no buying and selling of goods and services because people have no jobs?

Why are you so scared? Not smart enough to design the next generation of improved machines?
 
Here's my take on this. I do believe that, say thirty or so years from now, almost all manufacturing will be completely automated. When you eliminate human labor you are eliminating cost. If we had a stable currency system, this increased productivity would drive costs to zero or almost zero. Most consumer products would cost almost nothing. I believe that we would begin transitioning into a leisure and entertainment economy. There would be an economy for experiences, those are things that, short of Artificial Intelligence, machines can't provide. You just have to consider all the things in society that people crave that can't simply be provided by a widget of some sort, that is where the market will be.

I believe if we'd been on a gold standard or some other stable currency much of these decreasing costs would already have been passed on to us. This would have freed up much more disposable income. It used to be one wage earner could support a family. If not for inflation, a 20 hour work week might be the standard by now, maybe less. Machines replacing generally mindless labor would be a good thing. It frees up human beings for other pursuits. A market would still continue to exist.

There are books and other information available about possible post manufacturing economies and/or post-scarcity economies. It's worth reading into and the theories run the gamut of socialist to free market ideas.
 
When the day comes that machines produce everything we would ever want, automatically- then our entire economy will be completely transformed. It will be hard to predict what things humans would do.

Assuming we dont yet have "The Repilicator" from star trek, people would still be needed to locate and mine natural resources for the machines to produce the products we want. Yes, eventually machines could do this as well...

People would be needed to design better machines. If we allowed that responsibility to go to machines, we would be heading down a scary road.

People would be needed to produce entertainment, design art, etc.

If you asked farmers 200 years ago what it would be like if one farmer could do the work of 100 with the use of technology- they would get all nervous and assume a market collapse. I mean, what are all these farmers going to do?

Well like Adams said "I must study war and politics, so my son may study agriculture and construction, that his son might have the right to study art and music." If it were not for the constant decimation of wealth through war and fraud- we would be living in a more Utopian society. Maybe your great grandson would be a Twerg Braider. Do you know what that is? Well your great grand father didn't know what a Network Administrator was either.
 
Teenie Queenie, this ones for you: www.marxistforums.com

Lmao... the reason no marxist has applied for the domain name is because it would become private property. :D (also because they are parasitic they do not create, only leech)

I guess they could set up some public trust in order to not be hypocritical? :p

@ BrandonYates... :D

Awww... I knew I was forgetting something, great link up. If you google the same thing but with "+pdf" you can download it... :)

Not sure teen will read it though.. I predict a paragraph, then he'll see his quaint dream imploding he'll scroll down the page out of fear.
 
Just imagine how many jobs must have been destroyed by the invention of the fishing rod.

God, we would all be so much better off if evil capitalism never allowed for the invention of job destroying capital such as the fishing rod.
 
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