How President Paul Could End the Income Tax Without a Constitutional Amendment

Watch "Freedom to Fascism" on google videos. Even if you say the 16th Amendment was passed legally, it does not, according to many Supreme Court decisions, grant the government the ability to tax wages.

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Can you find me any information on those Supreme Court decisions that say the government cannot tax wages? I would like to read them. Even a summary. There were some prior to the Sixteenth Amendment, but I know of none since- that was the reason for the amendment. Wikipedia lists a few that support the right of Congress to tax wages- one that even says they could tax income even without the Sixteenth Amendment ( see Bowers v. Kerbaugh-Empire Co. ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
 
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The law is not what is written down in the documents, nor is it the "original intent" when it was passed. The law is how it is interpreted and carried out today. It doesn't matter what it says in the books. It doesn't matter what people were thinking when the income tax laws were passed. All that matters is that the American people have accepted that an income tax is both legal and necessary for the proper running of government. Contrary to what you might hear here, most people are perfectly comfortable paying income taxes. Of course they may complain about the IRS from time to time, but that is just idle bitching. When you ask them whether they would rather keep their tax money and give up all the government services they believe it provides or keep paying taxes, the vast majority of people would keep paying taxes. Most people, because of with-holding, do not even know how much money they pay into taxes each year. All they know is that if they are lucky, the IRS sends them a "refund check" every spring and they get to run out to the mall and buy something new for themselves.
 
Nonsense... Nixon was pardoned and he was never tried.

Good catch, Tarzan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That seals it. I didn't even think of that. He could do a blanket pardon for everyone in the country. At that point it's all over and done.
 
The law is not what is written down in the documents, nor is it the "original intent" when it was passed. The law is how it is interpreted and carried out today.


Erik, you sound like a government shill. This is irrational. Same as saying "2 + 2 = 4 being written down and being the original intent of the mathematicians doesn't matter. It means what people say it means today. If they say it means, 2 + 2 = 5, then they are right."


It doesn't matter what it says in the books. It doesn't matter what people were thinking when the income tax laws were passed. All that matters is that the American people have accepted that an income tax is both legal and necessary for the proper running of government.

Again, irrational. This is the inverse of Appeal to Tradition. Also an Appeal to the Majority.

Contrary to what you might hear here, most people are perfectly comfortable paying income taxes.

Contrary to what you might hear, this country did just fine without an income tax for over 150 years. We became the richest, most prosperous nation in the world while having no income tax.

Of course they may complain about the IRS from time to time, but that is just idle bitching. When you ask them whether they would rather keep their tax money and give up all the government services they believe it provides or keep paying taxes, the vast majority of people would keep paying taxes.

Regardless, taxation is theft, and we should end direct taxation.

Taxation is not a contribution. If you refuse to pay, you will receive threatening letters demanding payment. If you ignore them, eventually a case will be filed in court. If you ignore the summons and fail to appear, a warrant will be issued for your arrest and men with guns will come to your home to take you to jail. If you tell them you're not going and to leave your property, they will forcibly try to take you in. If you physically resist and fight back, they can and will legally kill you. That is taking money by threat of force, and by force if the threat isn't sufficient. That is theft, which is continual in the case of taxation and which therefore equates to slavery, and it is immoral.

"To take a man's property without his consent is robbery; and to assume his consent where no consent is given, makes the taking none the less robbery. If it did not, the highwayman has the same right to assume a man's consent to part with his purse, that any other man, or body of men, can have. And his assumption would afford as much moral justification for his robbery as does a like assumption, on the part of the government, for taking a man's property without his consent. The government's pretense of protecting him, as an equivalent for the taxation, affords no justification. It is for himself to decide whether he desires such protection as the government offers him. If he does not desire it, or does not bargain for it, the government has no more right, than any other insurance company to impose it upon him, or make him pay for it." - Lysander Spooner, "Trial by Jury"

Most people, because of with-holding, do not even know how much money they pay into taxes each year. All they know is that if they are lucky, the IRS sends them a "refund check" every spring and they get to run out to the mall and buy something new for themselves.

Yes, master will throw them back some scraps as long as they keep licking his boots...
 
He could only pardon people if they were prosecuted while he was POTUS. The IRS could simply wait until his term was up, and then start prosecuting everyone that didn't pay up.

There is no such limitation. The only limitation is if the President is being impeached.
 
Erik, you sound like a government shill. This is irrational. Same as saying "2 + 2 = 4 being written down and being the original intent of the mathematicians doesn't matter. It means what people say it means today. If they say it means, 2 + 2 = 5, then they are right."

That would actually be true, because truth is a man-made concept. Whatever people agree is true is true to them as long as everyone around them continues to reinforce it. The only time it stops being true is when some new information is added to cause enough people to question their original truth, abandon it and accept the new one.

Tax protesters love to theorize, and they love to pore over the law books and come up with little loop holes and philosophical arguments, but those things are absolutely meaningless unless you can convince enough people that you are right, which is an appeal to the majority, which is what you need to get things done in this country, whether you like it or not. You can sit in your basement and come up with schemes all day long, and you can be absolutely convinced that there is a grand conspiracy by the government to defraud you and that Ron Paul is going to ride in on a great white horse and twist the rules to free you from your shackles, but it's not going to happen.

Ron Paul understands better than anyone that in order to change the government there must be the political will of the people first. He has mentioned this countless times in his speeches and debates and I am always surprised that a lot of people here completely ignore that.

"Before you can get rid of the IRS people have to change their minds about what the role of government is". These are not my words, they are Dr. Paul's words.

This has not happened yet! Not even close. Most people still believe that the income tax is both legal and necessary. If Ron Paul somehow managed to eliminate the income tax without a constitutional amendment or the support of the majority of American people they would be marching on Washington in protest! They would be rioting and looting in the streets because they wouldn't understand WHY it was done. All they would see is government services they previously relied on being "stolen" away from them without any good explanation for it. Its not easy to go from being dependent to self-reliant overnight.

The poor wouldn't have any extra money in their pockets because they barely pay any taxes, they live off the taxes of the rich. The middle class would have some extra money but most likely they would treat it like any other pay raise. Have you noticed that in this country as people earn higher paychecks they never seem to have any more money? They just spend it on more and more expensive stuff; a new truck, a bigger house, a big-screen TV. Throwing money at the American people isn't going to set them free, it will only enslave them more to the banks and credit card companies!

So getting rid of the income tax is not as easy as changing some laws or electing a president. It's an uphill battle that involves changing minds. If you change the law and not the minds the people will scramble to reinstate the law and kick Ron Paul out of office so quick it will make your head spin.
 
That would actually be true, because truth is a man-made concept. Whatever people agree is true is true to them as long as everyone around them continues to reinforce it.

Whatever people PERCEIVE as truth, they may substitute as truth, but the truth remains unchanged. If human beings cease to exist, does the truth of the law of gravity change? No. There are univeral laws and universal truths.

If Ron Paul somehow managed to eliminate the income tax without a constitutional amendment or the support of the majority of American people they would be marching on Washington in protest! They would be rioting and looting in the streets because they wouldn't understand WHY it was done. All they would see is government services they previously relied on being "stolen" away from them without any good explanation for it. Its not easy to go from being dependent to self-reliant overnight.

Absurd. People would be dancing in the streets.
 
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I'm fairly sure he could use his executive authority to instruct the IRS to not violate the 4th, 5th, or other Amendments in the process of investigating or collecting unpaid taxes. That would effectively cripple it, he could simply point to the Bill of Rights, and he wouldn't have to deal with being accused of abusing his pardoning power.

Well, the 4th Amendment doesn't say "money", and as long as you get a speedy trial, it's within the law. I think the 6th Amendment could work, because they have to tell you what you're being accused of. And since it doesn't exist, you'd be free.
 
I thought that this unconstitutional federal income tax was going directly from the IRS to the federal reserve to pay off the national debt and the compounding interest. Not towards the programs that most Americans think it's going towards.
 
People listen to what a president says (well, unless it is president Bush, obviously). Ron Paul could just talk about how bad the IRS is and even though he wouldn't have any authority whatsoever to introduce bills, it might eventually hit a nerve with people. My guess is that he would deliver such a powerful State of the Union address that it would oil some gears in some people's minds.
 
I thought that this unconstitutional federal income tax was going directly from the IRS to the federal reserve to pay off the national debt and the compounding interest. Not towards the programs that most Americans think it's going towards.

Much of it is - and this will only continue to grow with statist politicians, as the Grace Commission under Reagan projected.

The real purpose of the income tax is that it's a buffer to stabilize the worthless fiat currency, as explained here.
 
I would not consider Alan Strang a knowledgable source. His rants are not based on facts but emotion. In one of his pieces he calls Roosevelt, Clinton, and Bush communists and is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. At the very least he is taken with wild exageration. Unless his desire is satire.
http://www.batr.net/batrcolumnists/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=41
I profoundly wish I did not believe this, but I do. I believe that the District of Criminals is preparing to hit us again with another ersatz incident like Nine Eleven. I believe the next government attack on these united States will be even worse – that even more Americans will be killed – because the purpose of the attack will be to foment hysteria of such a magnitude that Communist world government traitor Bush can at last impose the martial law for which he has been lusting.

I believe the incident I expect could include the forthcoming nuclear assault on Iran, which would take us all the way into full-scale war and offer Communist Bush the excuse he needs to trick us into accepting the controls specified in presidential Executive Orders, control of all housing, food, transportation, firearms, banking, money, employment and people, etc., more control than Communist China presently "enjoys."
 
I would not consider Alan Strang a knowledgable source. His rants are not based on facts but emotion.

If he's right or wrong about a particular point, then point that out and demonstrate why he's right or wrong.

In one of his pieces he calls Roosevelt, Clinton, and Bush communists

What he probably meant to say was "collectivist." And they are all collectivists.

and is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

I don't buy the entire conspiracy, but if you watch "9/11: Press for Truth" - nothing in that documentary has ever been refuted. The government knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen. The evidence of that is irrefutable.

http://www.911pressfortruth.com
 
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